Where's the 3V?

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Well CK I find myself increasingly in the camp of yourself and BBB the thinness and heat-treat with only a primary bevel are indeed impressive and you make a uber strong case for both as well as 4V. Thank you.

[steelcity16]

I've now seen multiple people who want a 3V folder resorting to calling those who don't agree "haters". Another one saying dissenters are being political and are without practical logic. Trying to apply negative labels to people who offer reasons for having a different viewpoint just makes the name callers look petty and angry. There are many legitimate, factual and logical reasons for people to say there are better options than 3V.

Chad, thank you for your well thought out and well researched responses as always. I am definitely not referring to you, Larrin, BBB and other true knife-makers and steel aficionados as haters. I respect your research and concede that you all know way more than me and most others here on this topic. I am more referring to folks who think folders are all about wear resistance and paper cutting and hair whittling and should never be used in a way where toughness is needed.

You may very well be right that 4V, V4E, and Cruwear are better suited to a folder in nearly every regard, but there are unfortunately no current options for these steels in any Spyderco at the moment, so why not try 3V this time? We all enjoy trying new steels and the latest flavor of the month. I would be great to compare a 3V para 3 to a 4V and Cruwear Para 3.

And again, the other big production folder company decided there was a good enough reason ($$$$$) to put 3V in a folder, so why can't Spyderco do the same and appease all of us illogical 3V lovers while increasing their bottom line at the same time??

[Catamount123]

Xplorer,

Thanks for the excellent and informative post, and doing the testing so I don't have to I think both 3V and 4V are worth trying, and would buy a Manix 2 XL in either one. If they actually made it in both, the choice might come down to which handle material/color combo I prefer.

[Xplorer]

I've now seen multiple people who want a 3V folder resorting to calling those who don't agree "haters". Another one saying dissenters are being political and are without practical logic. Trying to apply negative labels to people who offer reasons for having a different viewpoint just makes the name callers look petty and angry. There are many legitimate, factual and logical reasons for people to say there are better options than 3V.

Chad, thank you for your well thought out and well researched responses as always. I am definitely not referring to you, Larrin, BBB and other true knife-makers and steel aficionados as haters. I respect your research and concede that you all know way more than me and most others here on this topic.

:) Thank you for the kind response my man.

I am more referring to folks who think folders are all about wear resistance and paper cutting and hair whittling and should never be used in a way where toughness is needed.

I am with you on that idea. I don't see any value in calling them out because they buy knives too and are free to like what they like, but in terms of my own personal preferences I do agree.

You may very well be right that 4V, V4E, and Cruwear are better suited to a folder in nearly every regard, but there are unfortunately no current options for these steels in any Spyderco at the moment, so why not try 3V this time? We all enjoy trying new steels and the latest flavor of the month. I would be great to compare a 3V para 3 to a 4V and Cruwear Para 3.

I think while you're saying "why not 3V" (valid question) people are just saying..if we're going there why not skip it and go to straight 4V or better yet V4E because it a better version of the same concept?

I can totally appreciate your viewpoint. My collection of well over 100 Spyderco knives was built by my desire to try each steel I hadn't tried or any blade shape I wasn't familiar with. Aside from consistent quality, the thing that has most endeared me to Spyderco is the wide ranging selection they offer my curious mind. It's their brilliant way of taking all my money. Sal is a genius! So, for you to want to add 3V to your collection is something I can fully appreciate. I do hope it happens for you. :)

Best regards,
CK

[steelcity16]

4V and V4E are more balanced options that not only excel as the world's finest competition choppers but also offer the type of properties that make a better folding knife steel than 3V while still exhibiting extreme toughness. Of course, people will want what they want and there's really nothing wrong with that. 3V is still a great steel even if metallurgy has evolved beyond it. Although I wouldn't buy one, I do hope Spyderco decides to make a 3V folder again. Steels like Maxamet and and S110V are just as out of balance in the opposite direction, so if there are enough buyers out there, why not let the 3V fans have their toys too?

I do think a person that wants a 3V knife should be able to buy what makes them happy.

Best,
CK

So are you saying that you think 3V isn't a great steel for smaller fixed blades as well compared to 4V? I wouldn't consider Adventure Sworn, LT Wright, and the smaller Bark River Bravos as "choppers" per se, but they seem to sell small fixed blades in 3V by the truckload that are well received in the community. Aside from batoning, what would people be doing with these knives that couldn't be done with a Shaman or Manix XL or Native or Military where 3V makes sense in a small fixed blade but not in a similar sized folder with a strong lock?

[TomAiello]

I own small fixed blades in both 3v and v4e and I definitely prefer them in v4e. I will generally prefer 3v in larger blades (around 5+ inches) because of how I use them. I have a machete in 3v that's been pretty impressive, and I doubt that v4e would compare in that kind of platform.

But in the 3-4" inch fixed blades I definitely prefer my v4e to my 3v. The size just doesn't really allow me to crank on them in ways that I would with a larger knife.

[Xplorer]

So are you saying that you think 3V isn't a great steel for smaller fixed blades as well compared to 4V?

The question of great or not great for a fixed blade has to do with a lot more than just the steel composition. Using 3V in a small fixed blade is very similar to using it in a folder. It will make a fine knife but for the intended application 4V or V4E would be better suited.

I wouldn't consider Adventure Sworn, LT Wright, and the smaller Bark River Bravos as "choppers" per se, but they seem to sell small fixed blades in 3V by the truckload that are well received in the community.

I don't want to confuse the popularity of a knife or the successful application of a knife design with the difference between steels and best applications. When we refer to a specific knife and whether or not people like it for whatever application they choose we're talking about the combination of design, geometry, heat treat protocol and steel working together as a package. User's reported results can be helpful and provide valuable insight, but for real research they're unreliable and primarily anecdotal. Being well received is a matter of performance as perceived by comparison to what buyers used previously. The views and information I share with you about this come from investing a ton of time, effort and $$ in buying the steels, building the test knives, testing heat treating options and testing the final results in a way that provides clean data that can really be used to design knives. The reason I have to make such an investment in order to be confident I'm getting the best possible result from the knives I make is because the available information is just too murky, misleading and far too often completely false.

Production knife companies have a lot invested in what they do. Companies that have had success producing a knife design in 3V are not likely to switch to the latest and greatest steel for a host of reasons. They're more likely to continue to legitimately market the positive attributes and then use that new steel on either a new design or on an existing design that needs a sales boost. With respect to discussing the performance of steels we cannot reliably point to what a company decides to sell as an indication of which is better. However, I do think you can point to other companies' successes with 3V to make your earlier point about the bottom line being people are willing to pay their $$ for it. :)

Aside from batoning, what would people be doing with these knives that couldn't be done with a Shaman or Manix XL or Native or Military where 3V makes sense in a small fixed blade but not in a similar sized folder with a strong lock?

I would expect people to use a small fixed blade for exactly the same things as a folder in most cases. I know that's how I use the small fixed blade I carry every day.



Best,
CK

[steelcity16]

Thanks again Xplorer for the well thought out responses. It is great to learn from someone with a strong interest in these steels and truly understands why people want a tough steel in a folder. I am learning a lot from the immense amount of research and time you have put into this topic!

One last question (for now)

In one of the above posts you said "if we're going there why not skip it and go to straight 4V or better yet V4E because it a better version of the same concept?". Can you explain the main differences between V4E and 4V? I thought they were pretty much the same composition from different manufacturers? What makes V4E even better than 4V? And you mention these steels much more than Cruwear. Can you compare V4E and 4V to Cruwear as well? Are we leaving anything on the table by making a folder in V4E instead of Cruwear? Based on my limited experience with these steels and limited research, I would think Cruwear is more stainless, easier to sharpen, and slightly tougher than 4V, but less wear resistant. Is that your experience?

Don't want to derail this thread too much to 4V and V4E because I still want to see some 3V Spyderco folders regardless :D

[David R]

This is a great discussion. Thanks to Jim Ankerson, BBB, and Xplorer. That 4V blade that cut a nail with virtually no damage is fantastic. Could not have made your point any better.

[emanuel]

emanuel,

Why do you feel the the need to argue so vigorously against other Spyder enthusiasts getting a steel they want to try in a folder? If you think it’s a waste, then, obviously, you aren’t being forced to buy anything. Do you think making folders in 3V is going to prevent Spyderco from making them in the steel you prefer? Are you just upset that some don't share your opinion?

Hey, I think I've been very clear in that regard:

I'm not trying to tell you what to do with your money of course, and I'm not trying to demotivate you or cut down your excitement about it, I'm just trying to paint it in another light that some people might forget, or if they never used it, ignore.

All I said is that 3v is underwhelming in the platform he advocates for, and that there's a steel (4v/v4e) that's just a hair different who performs way better in a folder while also exhibiting extreme toughness. We're on a knife forum, no steel is hated.

CK, thanks for sharing your experience and I'm not surprised at all that we both came to the same conclusion.

[steelcity16]

All I said is that 3v is underwhelming in the platform he advocates for, and that there's a steel (4v/v4e) that's just a hair different who performs way better in a folder while also exhibiting extreme toughness. We're on a knife forum, no steel is hated.

CK, thanks for sharing your experience and I'm not surprised at all that we both came to the same conclusion.

Would you both have also chose V4E or 4V over 3V for the Spyderco Tuff? Or do you think that model in particular could benefit from 3V? Do you not think that even the large folders like the Chief, Manix XL, or better yet the original C95 Manix could benefit from 3V over V4E/4V?

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Is there anyone even making 3V or 4V in folders? I did a brief search at Blade HQ and everything shows sold out. With them you never know what that means...

[steelcity16]

Is there anyone even making 3V or 4V in folders? I did a brief search at Blade HQ and everything shows sold out. With them you never know what that means...

Benchmade has the 3V Bailout coming out this month for ~$145.

There was a Fradon Lock 4V Manix exclusive last year. You can still get the Manix on eBay direct from FradonLock for a hair over $200 (or much less if you strike when there is a 15% coupon). I think this one sold poorly mainly due to the sabre grind vs FFG, and the smooth CF scales which seem out of place on a "tough steel" work knife like the Manix. Not to mention those scales increased the price quite a bit. I think a FFG Manix in 4V with peel ply G10 would have sold out same day no problem.

There was a St Nick's Knives 4V Para 3 exclusive last year as well. I've seen rumors that St. Nick's may release more Red G10/DLC 4V knives like maybe a PM2 later this year. This would make sense since the Para 3 run sold out in hours.

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Wow missed those at St. Nicks hope they do a run.

[emanuel]

Would you both have also chose V4E or 4V over 3V for the Spyderco Tuff? Or do you think that model in particular could benefit from 3V? Do you not think that even the large folders like the Chief, Manix XL, or better yet the original C95 Manix could benefit from 3V over V4E/4V?

I think those knives would benefit from 3v if they had blades bigger than 8-10 inches, if not they don't gain anything in practice over V4E/4V besides losing edge retention and strength. Same with Spyderco Tuff, that blade is built like a tank for its size. The steel type is one of the last of your worries. 3v is just very good at toughness due to how well the vanadium carbides in it limit grain size. That's it, V4E/4V has insane high level of toughness also, but it also has hardness and strength net superior to 3v. Superior steel for knives, unless you get to ridiculous lengths. So the question is, is it worth gaining 20% more toughness and losing 2-3 times the edge strength, having it roll and flatten in situations where the other steel would still have a perfect edge? If the answer is yes, than 3v is the steel to go for.

[steelcity16]

Would you both have also chose V4E or 4V over 3V for the Spyderco Tuff? Or do you think that model in particular could benefit from 3V? Do you not think that even the large folders like the Chief, Manix XL, or better yet the original C95 Manix could benefit from 3V over V4E/4V?

I think those knives would benefit from 3v if they had blades bigger than 8-10 inches, if not they don't gain anything in practice over V4E/4V besides losing edge retention and strength. Same with Spyderco Tuff, that blade is built like a tank for its size. The steel type is one of the last of your worries. 3v is just very good at toughness due to how well the vanadium carbides in it limit grain size. That's it, V4E/4V has insane high level of toughness also, but it also has hardness and strength net superior to 3v. Superior steel for knives, unless you get to ridiculous lengths. So the question is, is it worth gaining 20% more toughness and losing 2-3 times the edge strength, having it roll and flatten in situations where the other steel would still have a perfect edge? If the answer is yes, than 3v is the steel to go for.

Are you a knife-maker or in the industry in some regard? I haven't seen too many posts from you but you seem to have a lot of strong opinions on steels and cite pretty specific numbers like "20% more toughness" and "2-3 time the edge strength". I've never seen where in your posts you mention where this knowledge and these numbers come from? I'm not saying that anything you said is incorrect, but I am genuinely curious as to the source of all of these numbers and opinions? Members like Xplorer, Larrin, Deadboxhero (aka BBB), and SurfGringo are well known for their industry experience, scientific research, and real world testing. It would be great to know whether the things you are saying come from your personal research and experience or if you are just repeating things you've seen/heard on the internet. Again, not an accusation, but it just would be good to know how serious to take your answers compared to well known knife-makers and metallurgists here on the forum.

[blues]

^^^^He may have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

(Just trying to lighten the moment...And now back to "Advanced Steel Wrangling 202"...)

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

^^^^He may have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

(Just trying to lighten the moment...And now back to "Advanced Steel Wrangling 202"...)

:D

[Xplorer]

..One last question (for now)

In one of the above posts you said "if we're going there why not skip it and go to straight 4V or better yet V4E because it a better version of the same concept?". Can you explain the main differences between V4E and 4V? I thought they were pretty much the same composition from different manufacturers? What makes V4E even better than 4V?

I may be misleading you with my bias there. Comparing V4E and 4V is definitely splitting hairs. It should be understood that for the knife buyer there is really no distinguishable difference between the two steels. The differences anyone might experience in use would have far more to do with different heat treat protocols than it would have to do with differences in composition. I have a preference because I am super anal about these things and I also have a slightly different perspective due to the fact that I have to cut, drill, mill, grind and sand these things. Primarily, the difference between 4V and V4E that is important to me is V4E's ability to achieve higher hardness at lower austenizing temps. By achieving the desired hardness at lower temp there is less retained austenite and reduced likelihood of grain growth. In the recent past there have been some anecdotal reports of V4E being better in other ways, but recently we have found that adjustments to the H/T protocol can overcome the previously reported differences, so they're not worth mentioning anymore. This is not important to anyone buying a knife and I would suggest you look at CPM4V and Vanadis 4 Extra as the same thing and pay more attention to what company is doing the heat treating. Spyderco does a very good job with heat treat.

And you mention these steels much more than Cruwear. Can you compare V4E and 4V to Cruwear as well? Are we leaving anything on the table by making a folder in V4E instead of Cruwear? Based on my limited experience with these steels and limited research, I would think Cruwear is more stainless, easier to sharpen, and slightly tougher than 4V, but less wear resistant. Is that your experience?

The most important thing to mention first is that CruWear and CPM CruWear should never be considered equals. CruWear does not provide the toughness or the edge stability that we get from CPM CruWear. The difference is so dramatic that they should have different names if it wasn't for the shared chemistry.

CPM CruWear fits nicely in between 3V and 4V. CPM CruWear is just slightly tougher and has lower wear resistance than 4V, and is not as tough as and has higher wear resistance than 3V. CPM CruWear can achieve high hardness similar to 4V if that is desired but there is significant loss of toughness in the high hardness zones. For people who want real toughness, CPM CruWear should be heat treated no harder than 62 but preferrably HRC 60. At HRC 60 CPM CruWear is tougher than 4V at HRC 58. But, once they both get to HRC62 things start to become more equal. It's also important to remember that edge stability is a result of toughness and hardness. Depending on the design goals and intended use there will be designs and circumstances where CPM CruWear is a better choice and other times when 4V would be a better choice. CPM CruWear has wear resistance just below M2, whereas 4V has wear resistance just below M4....generally speaking. CPM CruWear is a little more corrosion resistant than 4V but I don't really see a difference in practical use. Sharpening is about the same for both but dependent on hardness.

It's important to realize that within the range of parameters I've mentioned for these steels is a huge variation in performance and usability. When factoring in a knife size, geometry and intended application the steel and heat treat protocol can be chosen to best compliment the design and ultimately provide the highest level of performance. There are designs that will be best served by CPM CruWear, others that would be better served by using 4V/V4E and still others that would perform best using 3V.

As a knife buyer I think you can't go wrong with CPM CruWear and it's one the finest tool steels available. One of my favorite Spyderco knives is my CPM CruWear Manix.

There are basically 2 reasons you haven't seen me mentioning CPM CruWear earlier... first, we already have CPM CruWear folders from Spyderco. Second, I find CPM CruWear to be a royal pain in the a$$ to finish. My viewpoint regarding the processing difficulty should be irrelevant to you and anyone reading this.

The extreme toughness of 3V and (relatively) low edge holding capability make it the best choice for large knives that will be swung and/or and must absorb hard impacts and flexing due to the intended use and size of the blade. A parang, a machete, a large bolo or a large kukri would be examples of knives that would benefit the most from the qualities of 3V.
For extreme toughness and a little better edge retention CPM CruWear at HRC 60 is a great alternative to 3V for large knife applications and because of the better edge retention it is a better fit for smaller knives where more edge retention will be a higher priority.
When the application calls for hardness above HRC60 (like 2" - 12" fixed blades and folders) the best edge stability and best edge holding capability of the extremely tough steels comes from 4V/V4E.

Would you both have also chose V4E or 4V over 3V for the Spyderco Tuff? Or do you think that model in particular could benefit from 3V? Do you not think that even the large folders like the Chief, Manix XL, or better yet the original C95 Manix could benefit from 3V over V4E/4V?

Hard to say with the Tuff. I think if you're going to use 3V in a folder, the Tuff design was exactly what a 3V folder should be. Do I think 4V would be better suited for the knife?...well yes...but, if someone said to me that they wanted to design a folder and it had to be made in 3V I would say the Tuff is designed ideally for that steel.
For the others you mentioned I do not think 3V would be a good choice and frankly I would say CPM CruWear and/or 4V would be better than 3V but still a bit of overkill on the toughness side for those knives. For people like you and I who want some extra toughness it would be great, but I would choose something more like RWL34 or S35VN or CTS-XHP or Vanax as the standard steel for those models and 4V and CPM CruWear would be sprint runs for us steel geeks and toughness freaks.

Using one of the extreme toughness steels like those we're talking about in a folder will always be a niche and not the mainstream. I am a backpacker and I have had a passion for wilderness exploration since I was about 13. My interest in knives is influenced primarily by my experiences exploring and living in wilderness areas. I do some rock climbing as a part of reaching summits as well. Knives are on my mind all day, every day, including while I'm in the back-country. Although I'll admit I will allow myself to indulge in knife toughness fantasies like "can I wedge my knife between 2 rocks and use it as a foothold to stand on in order to get over a crux without breaking my knife?" ya' know..?.ways you imagine your knife could save your life that never actually happen :o :D When it comes to making real decisions about steel selections and heat treating I have to come back to reality and make design choices that will actually be appreciated while using the knife the way it will really be used...to cut stuff. When not used in abusive or potentially life saving fantasy ways, the truth is 99% of people don't need more toughness than we get from the great EDC steels like CTS-XHP/RWL34/S35VN/Vanax/Elmax, etc.. I'm not saying there aren't people who's daily lives would benefit from a super-tough knife...I'm just saying there aren't very many. The fact that we can get these special super-tough steel variants from Spyderco is unique and we are lucky they spoil us like they do.

For the record...yes I have built knives that I can stand on :p ...'cause when you're a knife maker who loves using knives...why not? :D

[Doeswhateveraspidercan]

Interesting so were the Military models in Cruwear just Cruwear or CPM Cruwear?