Interesting edge retention results

[Pelagic]

Edge retention testing performed by an amateur knife maker/sharpener/spyderco enthusiast on YouTube. He has a fun channel that you guys should check out if you haven't already.

The first test tests Spyderco's 8cr13mov (Tenacious) versus their s30v (Sage 1) and home heat treated 1080 steel. The second link is a disclaimer about the testing. The 3rd link is a more extensive test between the Tenacious and the Sage 1.

Test 1
https://youtu.be/FhsYm8l861c

Disclaimer
https://youtu.be/SdaVePhIBHc

Test 2
https://youtu.be/E3OSGl1I8go

I was not surprised by the general outcome (essentially the moral of the story), but I was surprised by the specifics of the outcome, despite realizing that the test is far from perfect or conclusive, and how profoundly the variables mentioned (and many other variables) effect testing results. What do you guys think? How have your experiences with Spyderco's 8cr13mov compared to those with s30v? Just curious.

One of the most important things we constantly learn is that there are more variables influencing the outcome of the test than we previously thought, as well as how profound the impact of these variables are on the results. Thankfully, we learn this through not only scientific tests but also through sharing opinions and experiences.

I can't help it, I'm eyeing the resilience a little more closely now :D

[Nate]

In my typically light everyday use, I don't see much difference in steels, so I was also not surprised. I still enjoy having variety in my collection and have examples of most of the "top dogs," but in reality I'm totally fine with 8Cr or BD1 as user steels and generally appreciate ease of sharpening and thinner edges over high wear resistence these days.

Others may have different needs and experiences, that's fine with me. I do wonder a little how much of a difference alloy really makes after other factors like hardeness, microstructure, and geometry are taken into account. Is all the debate over the last 5% of performance that can be eked out cutting abrasive materials at low sharpness? 10%? At any rate, it seems to fall out of scope vs. what I can see in ordinary use.

It's interesting, but only academic for me these days.

[vivi]

In my typically light everyday use, I don't see much difference in steels, so I was also not surprised. I still enjoy having variety in my collection and have examples of most of the "top dogs," but in reality I'm totally fine with 8Cr or BD1 as user steels and generally appreciate ease of sharpening and thinner edges over high wear resistence these days.

Others may have different needs and experiences, that's fine with me. I do wonder a little how much of a difference alloy really makes after other factors like hardeness, microstructure, and geometry are taken into account. Is all the debate over the last 5% of performance that can be eked out cutting abrasive materials at low sharpness? 10%? At any rate, it seems to fall out of scope vs. what I can see in ordinary use.

It's interesting, but only academic for me these days.

Agree with everything you wrote.

I carried Byrds for a while when I was new to Spyderco, under the mindset of "I'd rather have 5 Cara Caras than one Manix / Millie"

Well, that changed over the years :rolleyes:

I went and bought a couple Byrds to gift last year, and after checking them out decided to pick up another Cara Cara 2. It had been years since I carried one.

It surprised me with how well it held its edge. It had been a while since I used 8Cr at all, and it performed better than I remember.

BD1 is one of my favorite EDC steels. I find it takes an incredibly sharp edge almost effortlessly. Very, very good results sharpening my Manix, Ronin 2 and Voyagers.

Anyways the part I bolded is what stood out to me. The biggest benefits of many high edge retention steels are benefits I'm unlikely to see. It's not very often I break down an entire garage full of dirty cardboard followed by cutting 2,000' of rope, but I will say the few times I've done something like that, whatever knife was in my pocket got the job done. I've broken down serious amounts of cardboard with PE H1, BD1, 8Cr etc. Sure, maybe the knife could use sharpening afterwards, and no longer shaved, but at no point did I need to stop to switch knives or sharpen the one I used.

It can take specific situations to see the benefits certain steels offer, and depending on how you use your knives, you may never see them.

H1's rust proof properties are lost on many folks, while they're a game changer for me.

S110V & Maxamets edge retention is very important to some, but for me, cutting largely non-abrasive materials in low quantities, BD1 works great.

S7 has incredible toughness and resists deformation during tasks like chopping wood, but am I likely to see that property in a 3" blade folder?

[Pelagic]

What was most interesting to me is how EXACTLY even it was... You'd think human error alone would cause there to be a slightly measurable difference... nothing anywhere near conclusive, just a difference, somehow, for whatever reason. He couldn't make the results more even if he tried!! Lol. Amazing.

[Evil D]

I just came to realize my need for extreme wear resistance was more in my head than in my uses, and I don't mind touching up my edges daily or after each use (in fact I'm pretty OCD about it) so I got to s point where I never pushed those steels to their limits and while I'm capable of getting them to peak sharpness I do enjoy lower/mid range steels that are more responsive to sharpening, or maybe more specifically more responsive to the Sharpmaker since that's what I use for daily edge maintenance. This is how I've come to really appreciate H1 even in PE because the other benefits outweigh the low end of the line edge retention.

[RickC27]

Glad I'm not the only that's OCD about their edges. I can use a knife during the day and cut through some tape, envelopes, maybe 10-15 bands of plastic packaging strapping and a few boxes worth of cardboard. My edge is still sharp and easily cuts paper, but when I get home I'll take my sharpmaker ultra fine rod and give it 10-15 passes on each side anyways, just to get it to peak performance though totally unnecessary.

[Phil Wilson]

Pelagic; and others, very interesting testing with a lot of effort and some good analysis on testing with rope in general. I have been doing rope cutting tests for a long time and have come to some conclusions myself. I gradually evolved from 1/2 inch manila to 3/4 inch and a slicing sawing type cut from one single slice across the rope. The heavier rope and sawing give more wear for the effort and differences show up quicker. The cutting in the video is mostly a push cut. A push cut emphasizes geometry and sharpening rather than wear. Hardness, carbides and steel grade are not as important. I have also found that differences in sharpening media, grit, and attention to removing the wire edge can make as much as 50% differences on the same blade in the same test. I worked with Jim A. in his testing early on and his data pretty much tracks mine since both emphasize wear on the edge. His data makes a good reference for separating knife blade steels into general categories. The most important thing is how the knife feels in the hand and does the cutting job it is designed to do. This is more feel than science and and is what makes this kind of testing a challenge. Phil

[Chef_Pappa]

I carried a Gerber AR 3.0 440A (?) for years. When I got my Delica VG-10, I did notice a difference/ upgrade in all aspects of performance, including edge retention. I also have tried a couple Kershaws in 8cr and they did seem to dull more quickly. Beyond that I have not noticed a difference in steel edge retention. I would be interested in trying a spyderco 8cr knife to see how it preforms.
After trying (unsuccessfully) to even out an asymmetric edge bevel on a ZDP Endura, I am beginning to place ease of sharpening over edge retention.

[curlyhairedboy]

I think I trust CATRA results due to the repeatability, but technique matters a ton for these informal results.

EDIT: also, the biggest differences in edge retention are often seen in the realm well past when the edge won't shave.

[wrdwrght]

Pelagic; and others, very interesting testing with a lot of effort and some good analysis on testing with rope in general. I have been doing rope cutting tests for a long time and have come to some conclusions myself. I gradually evolved from 1/2 inch manila to 3/4 inch and a slicing sawing type cut from one single slice across the rope. The heavier rope and sawing give more wear for the effort and differences show up quicker. The cutting in the video is mostly a push cut. A push cut emphasizes geometry and sharpening rather than wear. Hardness, carbides and steel grade are not as important. I have also found that differences in sharpening media, grit, and attention to removing the wire edge can make as much as 50% differences on the same blade in the same test. I worked with Jim A. in his testing early on and his data pretty much tracks mine since both emphasize wear on the edge. His data makes a good reference for separating knife blade steels into general categories. The most important thing is how the knife feels in the hand and does the cutting job it is designed to do. This is more feel than science and and is what makes this kind of testing a challenge. Phil

Revelations here. Thanks.

[vivi]

Glad I'm not the only that's OCD about their edges. I can use a knife during the day and cut through some tape, envelopes, maybe 10-15 bands of plastic packaging strapping and a few boxes worth of cardboard. My edge is still sharp and easily cuts paper, but when I get home I'll take my sharpmaker ultra fine rod and give it 10-15 passes on each side anyways, just to get it to peak performance though totally unnecessary.

I'm the same way. I keep my UF bench stone on top of my dresser next to where I dump my pockets. If my EDC knife won't cleanly pop off stubble, I touch it up. I see no reason not to since it only takes a few seconds. So for me, I value quick effortless touch-ups more than extreme edge holding, all things being equal. I like how steels in the BD1 / VG10 / 12C27 ballpark sharpen when it comes to stainless.

I think sharpening abilities and edge geometry play a bigger role than steel. If you can get your knife hair whittling sharp, bur free, and 10 degrees per side behind your microbevel, 440C can outcut S110V at 20 degrees per side with a poorly done sharpening job.

[me2]

The results off both videos mirror my own when testing 8Cr13MoV vs S30V and BD1 vs S110V.

[jpm2]

This is partly why no test will ever agree with my own usage.
In addition to abrasive wear, my almost every day use with a folder might involve a good deal of lateral edge stress, adhesive wear, and light impact.... all in one sitting.

[Pelagic]

The results off both videos mirror my own when testing 8Cr13MoV vs S30V and BD1 vs S110V.

What kind of test did you use where BD1 hung with s110v?

Phil, thanks for your input.

[SF Native]

Pelagic; and others, very interesting testing with a lot of effort and some good analysis on testing with rope in general. I have been doing rope cutting tests for a long time and have come to some conclusions myself. I gradually evolved from 1/2 inch manila to 3/4 inch and a slicing sawing type cut from one single slice across the rope. The heavier rope and sawing give more wear for the effort and differences show up quicker. The cutting in the video is mostly a push cut. A push cut emphasizes geometry and sharpening rather than wear. Hardness, carbides and steel grade are not as important. I have also found that differences in sharpening media, grit, and attention to removing the wire edge can make as much as 50% differences on the same blade in the same test. I worked with Jim A. in his testing early on and his data pretty much tracks mine since both emphasize wear on the edge. His data makes a good reference for separating knife blade steels into general categories. The most important thing is how the knife feels in the hand and does the cutting job it is designed to do. This is more feel than science and and is what makes this kind of testing a challenge. Phil

Conclusion: work on sharpening skill more important than buying the next best steel.

[willc]

I love that we have access to all these steels with Spyderco.
Just this week I got a Native 5 in S90V from CS and traded a GEC for the Sage with comp lock.
These are my fun weekend type knives but at work I mostly go with aus8, bd-1, inox, and 8cr steels.

Some days I use my knives pretty hard and I sharpen a good bit less than 15 per side so they cut well.
When the s110v Manix came out I used that as a work knife for over a year and didn’t get much more advantage than longer sharpening sessions when it dulled.

I still love getting new steel and trying it out but they are not what many make them out to be.

[me2]

The results off both videos mirror my own when testing 8Cr13MoV vs S30V and BD1 vs S110V.

What kind of test did you use where BD1 hung with s110v?

Phil, thanks for your input.

www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtopic.php? ... 8&start=20

[sal]

Hi Chef_Pappa,

Welcome to our forum.

What do you use to sharpen your knives?

sal

[Surfingringo]

In my typically light everyday use, I don't see much difference in steels, so I was also not surprised. I still enjoy having variety in my collection and have examples of most of the "top dogs," but in reality I'm totally fine with 8Cr or BD1 as user steels and generally appreciate ease of sharpening and thinner edges over high wear resistence these days.

Others may have different needs and experiences, that's fine with me. I do wonder a little how much of a difference alloy really makes after other factors like hardeness, microstructure, and geometry are taken into account. Is all the debate over the last 5% of performance that can be eked out cutting abrasive materials at low sharpness? 10%? At any rate, it seems to fall out of scope vs. what I can see in ordinary use.

It's interesting, but only academic for me these days.

Agree with everything you wrote.

I carried Byrds for a while when I was new to Spyderco, under the mindset of "I'd rather have 5 Cara Caras than one Manix / Millie"

Well, that changed over the years :rolleyes:

I went and bought a couple Byrds to gift last year, and after checking them out decided to pick up another Cara Cara 2. It had been years since I carried one.

It surprised me with how well it held its edge. It had been a while since I used 8Cr at all, and it performed better than I remember.

BD1 is one of my favorite EDC steels. I find it takes an incredibly sharp edge almost effortlessly. Very, very good results sharpening my Manix, Ronin 2 and Voyagers.

Anyways the part I bolded is what stood out to me. The biggest benefits of many high edge retention steels are benefits I'm unlikely to see. It's not very often I break down an entire garage full of dirty cardboard followed by cutting 2,000' of rope, but I will say the few times I've done something like that, whatever knife was in my pocket got the job done. I've broken down serious amounts of cardboard with PE H1, BD1, 8Cr etc. Sure, maybe the knife could use sharpening afterwards, and no longer shaved, but at no point did I need to stop to switch knives or sharpen the one I used.

It can take specific situations to see the benefits certain steels offer, and depending on how you use your knives, you may never see them.

H1's rust proof properties are lost on many folks, while they're a game changer for me.

S110V & Maxamets edge retention is very important to some, but for me, cutting largely non-abrasive materials in low quantities, BD1 works great.

S7 has incredible toughness and resists deformation during tasks like chopping wood, but am I likely to see that property in a 3" blade folder?

Count me in as another voice in favor of this line of thinking. I believe that many of the current high vanadium steels have their place but I feel like we went through (or are still going through) a stage where almost everyone was looking at high V, high wear resistance steels as the "better" steels and everything else as "lesser" steels. As Sal has said many times though...it depends.

Usually, the characteristics I am after in a steel are found in what are commonly viewed today as "lesser steels". I have carried Spyderco's BD1 and 8cr13 a lot this year and I am very fond of both of them. Of the two, I probably prefer 8cr13. I am a often perplexed when I read someone saying that they would like to buy "such and such" knife but can't do it because it is produced in a junk steel like 8cr13. That just hasn't been my impression of the steel...at all

It is a very difficult subject to debate though because there is just so much that affects how a given steel performs for a given individual and there is very little standardized testing. Collectively we are a group of people with different sharpening skills, different edge angles and different ideas of "sharp" cutting different material with different force and technique, all of whom have different expectations and biases. Then we all compare notes and are surprised at the discrepancy of opinion. :rolleyes: :p

[jpm2]

I love that we have access to all these steels with Spyderco.
Just this week I got a Native 5 in S90V from CS and traded a GEC for the Sage with comp lock.
These are my fun weekend type knives but at work I mostly go with aus8, bd-1, inox, and 8cr steels.

Some days I use my knives pretty hard and I sharpen a good bit less than 15 per side so they cut well.
When the s110v Manix came out I used that as a work knife for over a year and didn’t get much more advantage than longer sharpening sessions when it dulled.

I still love getting new steel and trying it out but they are not what many make them out to be.

How is your knife used at work? If it's subject to contacting other metals, impacts, or side stressing the edge I suggest a medium to high carbide non stainless, except maxamet. CPM M4 is ideal among currently available knife steels.