Standard Production vs Sprints, S30V vs X steel, and market saturation..

[Evil D]

I was thinking about all the models that have come out in the last couple years and ones that are on their way, and some comments about whether they're selling or not, and about some models that have come and gone relatively quick from start to finish, and comments about them perhaps not selling because of the steel choices.

That got me thinking about my own stance and buying habits. I certainly can't speak for everyone, but buying a new knife is based on several things, and while steel choice is something that doesn't usually dissuade me from buying, it doesn't necessarily encourage me to buy it either. I focus more on ergonomics and overall design more so than steel, but steel is one of the biggest "excuses" I allow myself when buying a knife that I really don't need.

So, here's an example. There are currently 3 really awesome knives available that I really like, but I've only bought one of them because apart from ergonomic differences they all offer the same steel and would essentially be used for the same things, so the one I purchased was the one I liked the most ergonomically. Those knives are the Sliverax (the one I bought), the Manix 2 back lock, and the Lil Temperance. The latter two are very high on my wish list, but are lacking anything that would set them apart from my Sliverax since they all 3 come in the same steel.

So, this is why I need sprints/exclusives. We're all on our own level of budget and most of us make choices like this all the time, but for me I need something "special" to push me over the edge and to avoid feeling like my purchases are redundant. I don't necessarily love S30V but I certainly don't hate it, I just value variety and if either of those other two were offered in some other steel to play with I'd already own them.

So, besides my own preferences, my point of this thread was to seek feedback, who feels the same, and get a discussion going about how many amazing models may not be selling well and ultimately get discontinued due to this reason.

[bearfacedkiller]

I agree for the most part. For me it is mostly that my own collection has gotten pretty extensive. I have so many knives, both fixed and folder, that is hard for me to justify buying a new knife. It has to be unique from all the rest or a new variation of a model that I really like.

Besides base model steels I also have a tendency to avoid black peel ply G10. There is nothing wrong with either one but I already have enough of each. I did however make an exception for the Kiwi4 which has both black G10 and a base steel.

The Kiwi4 was, in my opinion, a victim of just what you describe. If it had a new or trendy steel or some more aesthetically appealing handle scales it would have done much better. It is a really unique knife with some positive attributes. It should have come with better scales and been marketed as a gents folder or come with a high end steel and marketed as a utility knife. I have used and abused mine but I doubt that many have given it a fair shot.

[The Mastiff]

Pretty much agree with the above with the exception of Steel having a lot to do with my future knife choices. I'm retired now on a fixed income with boxes and boxes of knives so anything I buy has to be something I expect to use in a platform I like with a new or upgrade steel. I'm all about sprints on the Endura and stretch platforms. Next would be Police and Natives followed by P2 and Millie. I won't really carry much else anymore except ones that fit my hands and are familiar due to advancing arthritis and other things. The above in other words.

When I do get a sprint I like I try to get a few when possible. The Super Blue and HAP 40 lineup couldn't have been better for me. I'd expect the next sprint will be as well.

Joe

[murphjd25]

I agree that some knives would probably still be around if offered with a different steel. Over my couple years of collecting Spydercos, I no longer care about the latest greatest steel. All I am worried about is how much I like the design and how it feels in hand using it. S30V is kind of boring now and seems to be offered quite a bit, but I like it and it won’t stop me from buying a knife I like.

[The Deacon]

While I am, to some degree, the opposite. Once upon a time I was able to believe "as a matter of faith" that any Spyderco I purchased would have decently stainless steel. To my way of thinking, ZDP-189 started Spyderco's downward spiral to less and less stainless steels. It's reached the point where I'm highly suspect of any new steel they offer. Unless a new knife is offered in VG-10, S30V, or some other steel I know to have decent rust resistance, I'll pass on it, more often than not.

I do wonder how large a share of the sales of any regular production model we, the "afi" community, represent and how many regular folks would be willing to pay a higher price for an exotic steel. I suspect the answers to those questions are why exotics are generally confined to Sprints.

[ZrowsN1s]

.....this is why I need sprints/exclusives. We're all on our own level of budget and most of us make choices like this all the time, but for me I need something "special" to push me over the edge and to avoid feeling like my purchases are redundant.....

....
Besides base model steels I also have a tendency to avoid black peel ply G10. There is nothing wrong with either one but I already have enough of each.....

I agree with both of these statements a lot.
I can't afford to buy base models and sprint runs,
so I wait for sprints. And with rare exception, I pass on models that don't get sprints.

I wish Spyderco would release small Sprints BEFORE they produce the base models. It would be a good way to gauge interest and get feedback from AFI's , and if it's popular with the AFI's maybe it would generate some hype for the base model to the general public.

*edit- kind of like the way if there's enough demand for a g-10 model they make a less expensive frn version.... If there's enough demand for a sprint, then it gets the less expensive base model treatment.

[Strider]

I think you can see what you are describing in basically all aspects of consumerism. People don't want the base model because that's what everyone else has and it isn't special. People want to feel special.

[Evil D]

I think you can see what you are describing in basically all aspects of consumerism. People don't want the base model because that's what everyone else has and it isn't special. People want to feel special.

That's certainly part of it for some people, especially people who collect. Exclusivity isn't something I care about because resale value isn't something I value because I very rarely sell anything and mine are all users so they'd be worth less if I did. In fact I'd say I'm the opposite, I don't actually want sprints, it just happens to be the only way I can get what I want. I'd be happier of these knives were standard production so I could easily buy replacements.

[Strider]

I think you can see what you are describing in basically all aspects of consumerism. People don't want the base model because that's what everyone else has and it isn't special. People want to feel special.

That's certainly part of it for some people, especially people who collect. Exclusivity isn't something I care about because resale value isn't something I value because I very rarely sell anything and mine are all users so they'd be worth less if I did. In fact I'd say I'm the opposite, I don't actually want sprints, it just happens to be the only way I can get what I want. I'd be happier of these knives were standard production so I could easily buy replacements.

could replace special with "what they view to be better/best"

[dplafoll]

This is an interesting topic. I think that for me personally I like sprints because I like variety in a general sense, both in steel and in handles. But getting a base model doesn't dissuade me if the knife speaks to me already, like the Sliverax or all the Sages, or the Techno, all in S30V. Do I wish they came in a better base steel? Sure, but only at a similar price, and I know that's not realistic. I also have a bit of the collector in me, so when choosing what to buy, I've purchased/acquired several of the orange-handled HAP40 sprints because I was given that model of Delica, and it makes sense to me (me personally, YMMV) to keep going in the set.
And on occasion, I know folks (including myself) will buy a sprint because the knife isn't in production anymore. I wanted a Caly 3 and I didn't really care which steel it was in, so I jumped on the HAP40 sprint and consider the steel serendipitous.
I do agree with David that it would be nice for more variety in standard production models, but I don't know that it's viable for Spyderco to do so too much more than they already have, at least not without sacrificing somewhere else like price or overall model line-up variety (because production capacity is relatively fixed).

[curlyhairedboy]

Great topic!

For me, I think the appeal of a new knife is definitely a process:

1) Design first. If a new knife comes out that offers something new/better in ergonomics, locking mechanism, or cutting efficiency - or addresses some niche that I might experience sometime soon - then I'm gonna bite. The upcoming spyderhawk sprint is a good example - I've never owned a hawkbill, let alone a large one, but this year is going to be a significant increase in my gardening....so I may end up really appreciating a rustproof hard use cutter! Similarly, the Parata's design just seems so novel....but that leads to the second stage:

2) Steel second. As mentioned earlier, the Parata's design is so overwhelmingly interesting that it makes the cost/benefit argument (which would normally end poorly for a VG10 folder at that price point) seem moot. Steel novelty holds a big appeal for me as a materials engineer, but I'm getting to the point where I've had enough first hand experience to start developing opinions i.e. CTS204p is a fave, s35vn isn't, etc. If a sprint comes in a steel I'm interested in AND a design I'm a fan of, it's basically a home run. (see: upcoming DLC m4 Para2. Take my money!)

3) Redundancy third. I live and work in an area with broad variances in legal blade limits, so having some diversity in knives within different blade sizes is super useful (example: I need a tough folder under 3 inches - Bring the Techno. Something exceptionally slicey in a dressy environment under 4 inches? Slyzs Bowie.) I don't mind covering my knife need categories more than once, but I hesitate to do so when there's nothing from the two earlier steps to really push the decision.

This last step is what really comes into play in the conversation about "oh, another s30v blade with black g10". If a new release overlaps with niches I already have covered in my collection, and it's neither a design or steel draw, odds are I won't bite.

What's interesting is that this situation doesn't pop up often. We're talking one knife in 10. I can only speak as a spyderco fan and a knife/edge afi, but I can't say that spyderco's decision to default to s30v/black G10 plays a primary OR secondary role in my buying process.

[MichaelScott]

Steel choice is at the bottom of my list. I too am retired, on a fixed income and dealing with health issues so my buying oppotunities are few. Otherwise, there is little doubt that I would be collecting a number of Spydercos. Even so, I think that steel choice would not be a driving force in knife selection. I am more interested in design and size as related to use than I am in materials. Spyderco’s “basic” steel offerings are fine with me: VG-10, BD1, S30V, etc. I have a Sharpmaker and keep my knives pretty sharp, but not extremely so.

I have no experience with handle materials other than G10, FRN, FRCP and Micarta. I have this Jones for a Lil’ Lum in Nishijin, but that would be more of a collector item. Wouldn’t replace my Chaparral FRN for use. Probably...I’m not sure I’d like metal handled knives, even titanium ones. I prefer lightweight knives. My current categories that drive what I consider someday buying are: 1.) size. I want small, medium and larger folders, one of each. 2.) use: The designs that will prove most useful to me on a daily basis. For example, as much as I like and respect the Yojimbo, it’s not something I can use regularly or would want to display in certain settings. 3.) cost. I can justify some features beyond the basics, like a DLC coating, but the knife has to be affordable which usually means “basic” steel, handle materials and non-sprint runs.

I think it is to Spyderco’s credit that they offer so many variations in materials and designs in knives. I love checking them out and getting the occasional chance to handle and talk about them on visits to the SFO.

[ABX2011]

My collection has been refined to the point where there's a high hurdle to buying a new knife. I have a lot of self-imposed constraints.
I don't mind some redundancy but I strive for each knife to improve the collection. Since the collection has matured, the knives that interest me now are more unusual designs that don't overlap with my current stock.
I find myself disqualifying a lot of new models for various reasons. I've also become quite price sensitive.

I would love to know what the macro trends in knife buying are. I have some ideas in my head that are based on my observations as a knife enthusiast.

[curlyhairedboy]

Wanted to chime in again, since it's starting to happen more frequently:

More of my recent spyderco purchasing decisions aren't made for me - they're for others, as gifts. So that's a whole other decision process. Having a good number of Spyderco knives coming in solid steel and materials (s30v and g10) make it easy to give loved ones a high quality tool.

[anycal]

When I bought my first :spyder: , the decision was based on what I would want to use. Although I did some research and was aware of the vast selection, I did not have the opportunity to handle one. And I definitely did not care about special steels or different materials. First one was out of necessity - replacement for misplaced knife of many years; second was for backup; third was pure 'huh... ain't that interesting'. All three were base models.

After that, things changed. Once I contemplated getting a forth one, I realized that this is becoming a hobby.

Today, I am at a point where any new purchase will based on what I like. I feel I have handled enough of them (11 different models) to know what works or doesn't work for me - different lock, weight, material, size, country of origin to a lesser extent. Honestly, out of the current offerings I don't have, and newly announced ones, there really isn't anything I must have, regardless of steel. I guess Mantra 3 is the only one on my radar.

I will probably get a sprint or two of some of my favorites. Otherwise, it would have to be a redesign of a favorite or something brand new which hasn't been announced yet. Sitting on the side line, saturated...

[bacmapei]

My budding interest in EDC lead me to various forums and sites and I wanted a better folder than my single backlock sub $20 (shop tool and never carried) knife which eventually directed me to Spyderco. I won't turn into a collector, but my interest in having a nice production knife that was reasonably rare did lead me to sprints. From browsing the catalogue and forums, I had planned to simply buy the Para 3 s90v sprint and be done as I find cf very appealing. In the end, my first purchase was the Para 3 Cruwear and now I have two Para 3s, but I am considering selling the s90V. I really don't need two expensive folders and I don't want to hold a safe queen for future resale. I'm thinking that I'd rather buy a Dragonfly hawkbill before summer and maybe get the Manbug Vtoku sprint for my son's Christmas present. I'll likely rotate new knives in and out as I carry more and develop my own preferences, but sprints and exclusives will still be a big factor in deciding to pull out my credit card.

[ChrisinHove]

Although ergonomics and blade geometry matter more to me than steel type, I do find myself waiting for a sprint steel to fill gaps in my line-up.

The Kiwi 4 is a great example. It's a lovely knife to use, but if people were more interested in "talk" than "walk" then it's their loss!

One problem, I guess, is that you have to make a big investment searching for marginal improvement over what you have already.

[anycal]

I will add one more thing. A sprint/exclusive does not always make it better than a base model. I gave away two sprints recently, which for me were not as good as the base model. Delica 4 Pakkawood (did a blade swap with FRN model first :D ) and the Native 5 linerless G10 (compared to the LW).

Anyways, interesting thread.

[standy99]

I'm at the point of being over sprints. Too many pre orders and being told a month or too later that they are sold out.

Like M4 and would buy a parra 3 and paramilitary 2 if it was available.
They are not available so my eyes are on other brands.

Will not pre order anymore if it's not in stock that's a sale Spyderco has lost ( and they have lost 3 or 4 purchases in the last 6 months )

[zhyla]

I need something "special" to push me over the edge and to avoid feeling like my purchases are redundant.

I think this is just running from the inevitable: you have more knives than you "need", can use, or possibly even want.