Ceramic Knives: I know you're all aching for practical versions!

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Right, Doc and demoncase? Think about it. We discuss sharpening compounds like boron nitride, aluminum oxide (Corundum family which includes sapphire), silicon carbide, silicon nitride, diamond (diamond can be considered both A A giant single carbon molecule, B a ceramic, and C, a hard polymer of sorts!), and others. Both covalent and ionic ceramics.

When I say practical, I mean something that is NOT like ceramic KITCHEN knives that can shatter and is brittle while being hard, but something altogether different, that has the hardness and strength and edge-holdability of the ceramic with the plastic deformation power of metals. Come on. You and I know its possible.

Mark my words: The time WILL come when CERAMIC COMPOUNDS replace STEEL and make Iron based alloys OBSOLETE for cutting tools, edged weapons, and knives.

If I could have a boron nitride folder that can take the same level of stress and fracture toughness as quality steel, but which also has the hardness of the ceramic, and since it is automatically rust proof, why would I want steel? Why would I even want h1 or lc200n? Think about bronze. Bronze was once a fundamental industrial material of the pre industrial age and then along came iron and steel. Now bronze has a few practical niches but mostly decorative. Steel will go that way one day, as well.

But maybe even less and here is why:

With advanced nanotechnology assemblers you can make a ceramic material like diamond or boron nitride that has the properties of the ceramic and the toughness of the steel.....AND.......which has the LOOK of the steel (altering the color and texture of its surface properties), and yet that is 100 percent rust proof. And because the BASIC MATERIALS are common and abundant: Boron, Nitrogen, Carbon, Oxygen, Aluminum, Silicon, etc), you do NOT need iron mines and all that. Iron is somewhat common but not as common as silicates and aluminosilicates. Also, the need for chromium, cobalt, vanadium, nickel, tungsten, and all that is then obsolete.

Later on when you can do cheap nuclear transmutation the metals come back cheaply. But, why bother? Unless you get really far off the deep end and speculate that metals stronger than diamond come into existence once you get Femto and Pico Technology..I'll stop there

[demoncase]

Right, Doc and demoncase?

Mark my words: The time WILL come when CERAMIC COMPOUNDS replace STEEL and make Iron based alloys OBSOLETE for cutting tools, edged weapons, and knives.

Think about bronze. Bronze was once a fundamental industrial material of the pre industrial age and then along came iron and steel. Now bronze has a few practical niches but mostly decorative. Steel will go that way one day, as well.

Right then. That's me told. :D

Couple of things:
1. I have a 1960s materials science book on my shelf that states (as a fact) that steel will have been replaced in all current automotive and aerospace applications by titanium and aluminium alloys. This was supposed to have happened by 1990 FYI.....beware predictions of future science as it is fraught with pitfalls.

2. Bronze and brasses have way more applications than decorative. Yes, we don't use them for knives but bearings and sleeves of all types use the properties of bronzes effectively.

3. Stainless Steel was supposed to make carbon steel obsolete in 1917.....how's that working out, do you reckon?.

4. I can buy a POS breadknife for $1. Unless that ceramic super breadknife costs 50 cents, why would I bother? Does my pbj sammich taste better for that oh-so-more efficient cutting? Do 99.99999999% of the population care as long as its cheap enough? Yep, us Knife Knuts are willing to expend 1000s of words advocating for a new supersteel but the rest of the world just isn't on board.

Dude. It might happen: sure, science is the art of the possible.....but I wouldnt bet more than the price of a coffee on it. :)

[Evil D]

The answer is the same as some other questions you've asked...what advantage does it have over steel, and will it be cost effective? We already have steels that are really harder than necessary for knife applications so what advantage does it offer? There are some steels already that I'd enjoy trying out but wouldn't want to use on a regular basis and sharpen all the time. I'm much more interested in a steel that manages to increase all the desirable qualities without any sacrifices, so find me a steel that sharpens and takes an edge like 52100 but is also rust proof or close to it and is also as hard and wear resistant as S110V or better but also extremely tough. Seems to me that ceramic is a one trick pony that does wear resistance extremely well but falls short everywhere else.

[flasharry]

Well, why not go back to the original non-metallic blades - Flint or Obsidian? Sharp as all gte out when properly knapped, can be re-sharpened (ok reflaked along the edge) and just as brittle as ceramic...

Heres one I made about 10 years back as part of a "learn something hard" challenge - ended up trading it for an Omega watch... handle is stag, blade is obsidian..

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I am glad to see your responses. David, I think a steel or material that had the properties of 52100 ball bearing carbon steel that was rustproof is a great task for science and engineering to tackle. I also see what you and DC mean about cost vs use and practicality. I like the obsidian and flint knives. If they could somehow be "molded" smooth without that hand-knapped look.

DC: If a way to produce titanium alloys became so cheap through cheap electrical energy generation, that titanium became as cheap as steel or cheaper, don't you agree that ti would replace steel and aluminum? The issue with titanium is the cost. You know very well that titania, titanium oxide, is common and abundant in soil and dirt and rock world wide. If we can master cheap electricity generation independent of fossil fuels, perhaps through controlled nuclear fusion or something akin to that, titanium would become cheaper than steel is and it's rustproof.
And so those guys in that textbook were not too far off. They just didn't take into account that human operations always take longer than predicted.

This is one reason why I really am glad we have H1 and LC200N stainless. These two steel types achieve what people in the past have only speculated on in fiction: Ultra durable metals that are rust proof.

David, don't give up on ceramic, man :) I know how present ceramics DO definitely look like a one trick pony with the great wear resistance but crappy fracture toughness and all that. But there is a lot of work on making Artificial Nacre like ceramics: A multi layered laminated material that has the hardness and wear resistance balanced with the toughness and flexibility.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

DC and others, then tell me in your own words: What material WILL finally replace steel like steel replaced normal iron and normal iron replaced bronze as the major industrial material? I want YOUR insights. Do you believe alloy steel will continue to be used for centuries down the line or will it finally be replaced by true wonder materials and what will those wonder materials be if you speculate and estimate?

If the world continues (ie unless some major world cataclysm/disaster happen) and technology continues to develop, will we see things such as VG10-quality steel that retains the quality AND low cost so that in decades to come VG10 will be as cheap and available as mild coat hanger steel is now, and people will be able to have dirt cheap knives made of VG10 type steel that have both quality and low cost? Will we finally see the end to the tense trade off between quality vs quantity and cheap-cost?

I consider VG10 stainless steel to be a super steel and a "science fiction fantasy metal" made real.

[Bloke]

SEF,

Your right about aching (me at least).

I'm having trouble typing but I think that an hour hitting pads and a heavy bag yesterday after an 18 month break may well be to blame.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

SEF,

Your right about aching (me at least).

I'm having trouble typing but I think that an hour hitting pads and a heavy bag yesterday after an 18 month break may well be to blame.

Beware of them drop bears with their ceramic teeth and claws my friend

[Bloke]

SEF,

Your right about aching (me at least).

I'm having trouble typing but I think that an hour hitting pads and a heavy bag yesterday after an 18 month break may well be to blame.

Beware of them drop bears with their ceramic teeth and claws my friend

I'm steering clear of trees today so I should be right but I don't think I could fight off an angry schoolgirl brandishing a tennis racket today. :rolleyes:

[Evil D]

SEF it's probably a topic that's a bit over my head, but I'd imagine that steel is such a part of human existence because that's what we have here on Earth to work with, and we can do so much with it and it's fairly abundant. Realistically, what else is there element wise that we can work with that could replace steel? In some ways that question has already been answered, when you consider things like titanium for example is being used much more in surgery than it used to be and is replacing steel for implants. That's pretty high tech when you think about how far we've come since the bronze age. If you're asking what will replace steel in the knife industry, then again I'd have to ask what is there that can do what steel does better while also being cost effective? There either needs to be something so significantly better than steel (as steel was to bronze) to justify the increase in cost, or it has to be equally affordable or cheaper and (maybe most importantly) readily available resource wise to work with.

[anagarika]

Even the existing steel isn’t optimized. To anyone interested, bluntcut CWF (he did post here but had more responses over BF) if being researched further can mean we have thinner & lighter steel structures but stronger.

[demoncase]

DC: If a way to produce titanium alloys became so cheap through cheap electrical energy generation, that titanium became as cheap as steel or cheaper, don't you agree that ti would replace steel and aluminum? The issue with titanium is the cost. You know very well that titania, titanium oxide, is common and abundant in soil and dirt and rock world wide. If we can master cheap electricity generation independent of fossil fuels, perhaps through controlled nuclear fusion or something akin to that, titanium would become cheaper than steel is and it's rustproof.
And so those guys in that textbook were not too far off. They just didn't take into account that human operations always take longer than predicted.

If it's as cheap and matches or exceeds properties of steel then sure.....but we've already got steel and Steel's much easier to recycle than titanium......so.....

That text book is a mile out and wrong: how much steel is in an engine? Or the body of a car? Or a fridge? Or the rebar of a building? There's inviolable reasons why other materials have not supplanted steel.

[demoncase]

DC and others, then tell me in your own words: What material WILL finally replace steel like steel replaced normal iron and normal iron replaced bronze as the major industrial material? I want YOUR insights. Do you believe alloy steel will continue to be used for centuries down the line or will it finally be replaced by true wonder materials and what will those wonder materials be if you speculate and estimate?
.

When we have room temperature superconductors then all bets are off.

Till then I wouldn't hold your breath.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

DC, what about for use in car engines? Don't you think ceramics would easily beat out steel engines because they are 1 lighter and 2 can withstand higher heat levels than metal which will melt? I think ceramic-metal layered composites are a good compromise because you get the best of both worlds for both engines and knives: You get the hardness and the toughness and higher heat tolerances than you will have with metal but you also do not face the brittleness problem with pure ceramics. Ofcourse, as you pointed out, the cost issues are paramount. That is why I hold my hope on this for biomimetic ceramic metals that make use of biological-type architectures, like we see in nacre/abalone and sea shells.

[demoncase]

DC, what about for use in car engines? Don't you think ceramics would easily beat out steel engines because they are 1 lighter and 2 can withstand higher heat levels than metal which will melt? I think ceramic-metal layered composites are a good compromise because you get the best of both worlds for both engines and knives: You get the hardness and the toughness and higher heat tolerances than you will have with metal but you also do not face the brittleness problem with pure ceramics. Ofcourse, as you pointed out, the cost issues are paramount. That is why I hold my hope on this for biomimetic ceramic metals that make use of biological-type architectures, like we see in nacre/abalone and sea shells.

Also no. Take a look at an engine in detail from cylinder head to drive shaft and you'll see lots of places where ductility, flexibility, thermal conductivity, vibration resistance and shock resistance are waaaaaaaay more important than hardness.

Aluminium is better for engine cases.
Steel better for connecting rods and transmission.
We already coat bores and valves in ceramic coatings.....there's a reason we don't make whole engine parts from it for road cars.

SEF: you keep pushing at extreme hardness as the solution to chase after. It isn't.
Magic sci-fi nanotechnology fantasy aside, if you can't cut a thread into it then building a working car engine from it is going to tax said material....and that's just the start of your problems.

Materials are a toolbox: and you can't reach for the sledgehammer from that toolbox for every job.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I see what you mean DC about different materials with different selected properties. As you said, until we have "magic sci-fi nanotechnology" type materials, we do not have a "Universal Material", correct?

Do you consider VG10 steel a good "general purpose knife steel" that outperforms most others up to this point in human technological history?

Second question for you and anyone else: I read some years ago about a concept called "case softening". This was written up as a counter to the tried and true "case hardening" of steel. The author was David Jones from England. He proposed the theoretical potential of making graduated metallic-polymeric materials that, if properly assembled, would have an extremely hard metallic core but as you reached the outer layers, were softer and more plastic-like.
What do you think of this, and, what are some of the challenges in making a "metal plastic" that combines the hardness of tempered steel with the elasticity of polymers/plastics?

[demoncase]

I see what you mean DC about different materials with different selected properties. As you said, until we have "magic sci-fi nanotechnology" type materials, we do not have a "Universal Material", correct?

Do you consider VG10 steel a good "general purpose knife steel" that outperforms most others up to this point in human technological history?

Second question for you and anyone else: I read some years ago about a concept called "case softening". This was written up as a counter to the tried and true "case hardening" of steel. The author was David Jones from England. He proposed the theoretical potential of making graduated metallic-polymeric materials that, if properly assembled, would have an extremely hard metallic core but as you reached the outer layers, were softer and more plastic-like.
What do you think of this, and, what are some of the challenges in making a "metal plastic" that combines the hardness of tempered steel with the elasticity of polymers/plastics?

Vg10 is great and I love it.....but be careful with terms like "outperform" on any material and especially a blade steel, as 5 different folks will give you 5 blade steels that outperform VG10 in some way.

All materials are a compromise. VG10, while great, is such a compromise.....no, it's not a magic material because it's the result of careful incremental improvements in dedicated cutlery material over the last 50 years.

As to that metal plastic idea......man, that's at best "a drawing on the back of a fag packet" as we say in Wolves.

There's scientific ideas, science fiction and then science fantasy. Guess which you've hit on here? :D

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Thank you for the good clarifying points my friend! Regarding the idea of a "universal steel" that "out performs" all others, this is important to know, and infact both you and David have mentioned this before, I am glad for your advice.

I do not want to drop the name of the company nor the steel but I read claims that a certain steel (let me put it this way..a "VERY GOOD" stainless steel...outperforms all other steel. Now, I have felt and used a folder with this steel and indeed, it is one of my favorites, like VG10, but, you are saying that even with all those supreme qualities, it is possible to outperform that steel in other areas. I see this.

How would you respond if someone were to say "demoncase, I believe lc100n or H1 is a "universal steel" that will definitely out perform all other steel, regardless of their particular properties." How would you respond to that?

[Hattori Hanzo]

SEF,

In all deference, do you actually believe industrial manufacturers are **** bent on researching and bringing to market "super materials" to improve the longevity of and to achieve higher, across-the-board performances of their products? I do not.

All I see, for the most part, is planned obsolescence and cheap Chinesium throw away products for mass consumption, coupled with immediate, but short-lived, gratification. E.g., how many mom and pop TV repair shops are still around in your town? How long do people keep their mobile phones, and what happens to their old ones?

Thus, in such a society, who wants to develop, manufacture, and sell an ultimate "super knife" for a song? What for? At present, for well under $100, you can get flawless, anodized Ti flipper folders with KVT ceramic bearings and M390 steel blades with perfect grinds in the marketplace all day long. Aside from immersion in salt water, what more do you need out of a pocket knife? What are you cutting that is so special? Cardboard boxes and apples?

I think material science would be better applied toward building multi-million dollar mansions out of foam and Saran Wrap for a few bucks...

Eh, just my take on the matter.

Cheers,

H2

[demoncase]

I do not want to drop the name of the company nor the steel but I read claims that a certain steel (let me put it this way..a "VERY GOOD" stainless steel...outperforms all other steel.

That's called marketing.....No-one has ever marketed something effectively by saying "Yeah, it's a bit better than the other materials in a couple of areas- and to tell the truth, 99% of users will never do enough comparison testing to tell".

Like I said before: 'Outperform' means (to me) a measurable and non-subjective improvement that is greater than the statistical error bars for said measurement.....

'Outperform' does not mean "Feels like it's better to my uncalibrated hand based upon my subjective memory"

And that all becomes way more difficult if we are trying to suggest that it outperforms on all such measurable parameters.

How would you respond if someone were to say "demoncase, I believe lc100n or H1 is a "universal steel" that will definitely out perform all other steel, regardless of their particular properties." How would you respond to that?

Laugh. Long and hard.

A steel that can (all at the same time):
Be the high-resilience spring in a car suspension
Be a thin, hard, sharp edge-retaining knife blade
Be the hard-faced but shock-proof tool in a power press
Be a soft, malleable and cheap paperclip that never takes an edge
Be the high temperature and oxidation resisting parts inside a car engine.
Be totally resistant to the cryogenic temperatures of a nitrogen tank with ebrittlement
Be the totally rust proof component of a water pump
Be formed into thin springy sections for car bodywork
Be an excellent magnetic component in an electric motor while being totally non-magnetic when needed in a watch mechanism
Be easily drawn into wires or rebar
Be stamped into sheets easily.
Be cast- be it sand, investment or forged
Be heat treated, hardened and tempered
Be welded, riveted or glued with equal utility
Be case hardened without decarbonizing or suffering intergranular oxidation...Indeed, take every known surface coating equally with no issues.
Be self-passivating like stainless but easy to patina like a carbon steel
Be work hardened only when you want it to and not all the other times that work is applied to the steel
Be free cutting and easy to machine but produce strong threads and have high dimensional tolerance
Take a perfect finish straight from the furnace or a mirror polish without issues......But also be plated in any other metal to suit your current whim on aesthetics without any issues.

Not.Going.To.Happen.....

SEF- I urge you to 'shelve' the wide-ranging interests in materials (for a time) and go buy a really good book on the industrial heat treatment of steels....Then read it.
The chemistry and physics that come from going deeply into that single subject will show you why so many of these ideas are- well- fantasy....and most (if not all) of your questions have been answered in Mankind's 3-4000 year history of dealing with Iron and iron-based materials.