Help me to define "Spear Point" vs "Dagger"?

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SpyderEdgeForever
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Help me to define "Spear Point" vs "Dagger"?

#1

Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

This may be of interest to you my fellow knife enthusiasts. Someone was discussing the difference between a spear point bladed knife and a dagger, and, at least to me, at times depending on the particular design, these seem to overlap. For example, there are technical terms and legal terms. If a person had a knife that had a legal blade length within a certain jurisdiction, and a police officer found that knife on them, and it had two twin symmetrical edges, and the knife owner tried to explain "Officer, sir, this is not an illegal dagger, this is a single edged knife with a spear point. That is not a dagger," would that matter much?

But when it comes down to actual technical knife terms, what are some good parameters to distinguish the two, dagger vs spear point blade?

This also touches on a related subject: False Edges. For example: Spyderco had some Native models that had a top false edge. Would that be considered more of a spear point, or a dagger like knife, or something completely different?

I will post a picture of a Benchmade knife below, this is the model 530, one of the variations, designed by the knife maker Mel Pardue. Now, when you look at this, do you think "folding dagger" or spear point folder? That is why it gets a little confusing.

Would you say a good encompassing definition of a true dagger would be any knife in which both edges on both sides of the blade are fully sharpened, from the hilt/base of the blade, all the way to the point/tip of the blade, and, if there is any break in those twin edges, the knife ceases to be a true dagger, and is something else, perhaps a single-edged knife, with a sharpened false-edge?

This whole issue gets even more complex with this: I have seen knives that definitely have ONE sharpened edge, yet they have been called "daggers" or "dirks" by various people. Interestingly: An expert on Scandinavian knives (Finnish Puukkos, Swedish Moras, etc) has said that in Norway and Sweden and much of Scandinavia, any knife is called and considered a "Dagger" if it has an actual cross guard. They call knives with finger guards daggers, according to him, because the presence of the finger-guard allows you to safely put more pressure in your stabbing-motions, thus it is considered better-suited for combat. I found that to be an interesting definition. And so, even if the blade had one single sharpened edge, if it had a fingerguard, they would call it a dagger.

BenchmadeMelPardue530MoreAgain.jpg

vs
SpydercoNative4.jpg
SpydercoNative4.jpg (8.95 KiB) Viewed 5735 times
Does the fact that the Benchmade 530 has an unsharpened section at the base of the blade mean it is no longer a true dagger?

And here is something else: I once got into a conversation with someone about the use of daggers vs non-dagger knives. My position is that double edged and single edged knives have their practical uses. His viewpoint was that daggers are ONLY made for and ONLY useful for one thing: Mayhem and meting death to combat opponents. He then said he believes single edged knives should be legal to carry but not daggers, because, according to him, a dagger is only meant for killing. I disagree with that. I have read and heard of and known of many situations in both modern and historically-ancient times when double-edged knives have practical uses. Look at the Sticking knives used by butchers and meat processers, as one example.

Sometimes it is better to have two edges than one. I once read where a survival expert claimed he would rather have a dagger than a single edged knife when out in the woods because he had two edges instead of one. However, critics of that may claim that you cannot baton a dagger as easily through wood as you could a single edged knife, and, with a single edged knife you can apply more detailed gripping positions safely with your fingers on the unsharpened section of the blade.
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Re: Help me to define "Spear Point" vs "Dagger"?

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Post by The Mastiff »

Spear point is the blade shape. A dagger is a type of knife. I think you are over complicating things SEF.

And here is something else: I once got into a conversation with someone about the use of daggers vs non-dagger knives. My position is that double edged and single edged knives have their practical uses. His viewpoint was that daggers are ONLY made for and ONLY useful for one thing: Mayhem and meting death to combat opponents. He then said he believes single edged knives should be legal to carry but not daggers, because, according to him, a dagger is only meant for killing.
I try to avoid talking to or spending time with people who have views like the person above. It takes a bit of narcissism to believe your own ideas are so important and correct that they should dictate to other people what should be legal to own or carry. I have better things to do with my time. I have doubts about them wanting to spend time talking to someone like me as well. :)

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Re: Help me to define "Spear Point" vs "Dagger"?

#3

Post by standy99 »

Many countries call knives daggers

It doesn't matter what anyone or the dictionary says as government legislation in every country is different

The spyderco above is not considered a dagger if you go to Australian Border Force website and read.

Quick look at the Australian laws

Item 2 Definition and Policy – Daggers and Similar Knives
Daggers or similar devices, being sharp pointed stabbing instruments (not including swords or bayonets):
a) ordinarily capable of concealment on the person; and b) having:
i) a flat blade with cutting edges (serrated or not serrated) along the length of both sides; or
ii) a needle-like blade, the cross section of which is elliptical or has three or more sides; and
c) made of any material.
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Re: Help me to define "Spear Point" vs "Dagger"?

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Post by demoncase »

A dagger is double edged. That's it in a nutshell

Remember that the US laws still on the books prohibiting the carry of 'Daggers, Dirks and Bowie Knives' are all because they have a full or partial double edge- an original Bowie knife would have had that swedged portion of the back edge sharpened for the back cut in defensive use.

Yes, many folks don't like seeing pointy-bladed knives.....they also don't like seeing heavy metal t-shirts and loud motorbikes. That's their problem, not mine :D
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Re: Help me to define "Spear Point" vs "Dagger"?

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Post by The Deacon »

As Joe said, one is a blade shape, the other a knife type. And, as standy99 said, It doesn't matter what anyone or the dictionary says as government legislation in every country is different. In NY, anything with a double edged blade is verboten, most stores won't even ship one there. While here, in SC, I can carry this...

schrade push dagger.JPG

If you want to get really confused, look up the definitions of swedge and false edge. :D
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Re: Help me to define "Spear Point" vs "Dagger"?

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Post by SpyderEdgeForever »

Thank you for the descriptions and definitions on this everyone.

Do you think one reason why some places will, in their laws have descriptive terms such as "dangerous" before the object, is because this way they can keep the law more vague, and stretch it to cover a wider range of objects? For example, it seems inaccurate to me for a law to say "dangerous dirk" or "dangerous dagger" or "dangerous knife" because you can say "dangerous cane" or "dangerous chair". What difference does that make? A cane or a chair can be dangerous, a piece of wood can be dangerous, if used to club someone with them.
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Re: Help me to define "Spear Point" vs "Dagger"?

#7

Post by kitchenlung »

The spear point knife is a symmetrical blade shape with a long cutting edge that also excels at piercing. The difference between a spear point and a drop point is the symmetry of the top and bottom edge. The difference between a spear point and a dagger blade is simply that the top edge of a spear point is not sharp.
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Re: Help me to define "Spear Point" vs "Dagger"?

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Post by Michael Janich »

Dear kitchenlung:

Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.

Typically, the top, unsharpened bevels on a spearpoint do not extend as far back as those on a dagger. The Spyderco Nightstick has a dagger grind, but is single edged. The Native 4 was a textbook spear point.

Stay safe,

Mike
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