In search of a real kitchen folder

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
btbyrd
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In search of a real kitchen folder

#1

Post by btbyrd »

I'm a kitchen knife guy and it irks me that nobody makes a proper folding knife that works well in the kitchen. I honestly don't know that folders have any real place in my kitchen, but they may have a place in my pocket when I travel to other people's kitchens. Dull knives are a dangerous abomination, but that's what most "ordinary" folk keep on hand. Unfortunately, showing up to someone else's house with your knife roll can make you look like a jerk. Having a sharp, slicey folding knife in your pocket is more socially acceptable, and doesn't carry with it the presupposition that I'm silently judging you for your sad, dull knives. But no such kitchen folder really exists. At least, not to my knowledge. There have been some attempts at consciously designing such a knife, and other designs that accidentally perform pretty well in the kitchen... but there are a few major design flaws that seem to plague most all folding knives for kitchen use.

The main sins are short blades and obese blade stock. There also tend to be issues with the grind, but those are minor in comparison to the more fundamental problem of squatty, fat blades that are either too short to slice properly or are so fat that they wedge what you're cutting apart. Or most often, both. Overall blade shape can also be an issue, but again... the main problem is that people make knives that are too short and too thick to be of general culinary use. Sadly, many of these complaints apply to the Spydiechef, which is a fantastic knife for bleeding and gutting fish (like a small, rust-free pocket deba) but isn't a very good all-around knife for food prep (IMO).

Let's start with blade length. To get the ball rolling, here are some of my smaller kitchen knives:

Image

From top to bottom, that's a 150mm Yoshihiro AS petty, a 105mm Yamashin White #1 tall petty, a Misono UX10 120mm petty, a 4" serrated Spyderco utility knife, and a Kuhn Rikon Colori "paring knife."

The top two knives are basically there for comparison purposes. 150mm is still very much a small kitchen knife, but it's freaking huge by folding knife standards. Obviously, that's out. The 105mm tall petty is a fantastic knife for mincing chives, garlic, shallots, ginger... the extra height allows it to function like a larger knife in many respects, since you get a lot of added board clearance. But making a tall petty into a folder would create a gigantic pocket monster that's too thick to carry comfortably. In my experience, 120mm is about as short as you can go on a petty knife and still have it be useful for board work. The Misono UX10 hits the real sweet spot for me. It's not overly tall, but it's long and thin enough that you can do an astonishing number of tasks with it. I used it to break down several turkeys this holiday season -- and actually preferred it to my honesuki, which was surprising. The Spyderco and Kuhn Rikon knives are excellent fruit knives. I got the Spyderco for Christmas, and mowed through a case of clementines for juice the next morning. The KR is carried by a lot of bartenders, and is great in a lunchbox. But they're a little too short for proper board work.

So here's the thing about length. Once a kitchen knife shrinks below 120mm, most companies stop marketing it as a petty and start calling it a paring knife. Paring knives are meant for off-board work, like peeling things or turning mushrooms or carrots into Frenchy shapes, rather than slicing and dicing. They live in your hand, and seldom if ever touch a cutting board. You can get a bit shorter than 120mm and call it a non-paring knife, like the Spyderco small "utility" knife or the KR "paring" knife. These aren't great subsitutes for true paring knives (which are even shorter) but are okay for cutting very small produce. They are still too small to cut through things much bigger than a lemon. If an orange can threaten to overwhelm your knife, your knife isn't a great all-arounder in the kitchen. (Sorry, Spydiechef. If only you were 50% larger... and thinner... and had less of a belly... who's rock chopping with a folding knife anyway? But I digress...) With the issue of length in mind, here are some of my longer folders next to the Misono.

Image

From top to bottom, that's the Extrema Ratio Dark Talon, Misono UX10, ER Resolza, Spyderco Pattada, and an Opinel slimline 10 and 12.

The Dark Talon is so close to what I'm looking for. It flirts with being a folding 120mm petty, and the wharny blade shape makes chopping easy (no rocking necessary... just come straight down). The stabby tip is great for delicate work. The Resolza is also lovely, but the blade shape isn't really great for board work (though it may be the best letter opener around... sorry Sal!). The Pattada's blade shape also doesn't make it great for cutting on a board, but my main issues with it are that it's too short and too fat for food prep. I love the Pattada. Love. Just not for this task. The Opinels are sufficiently long, but insufficiently tall for food prep. They also border on too thin, which gives the blades more flex than you'd want in a kitchen knife. They're awesome steak knives though. Because of their thin blade stock, the Opinels run circles around everything else in terms of slicing ability. It's almost embarrassing, considering how cheap they are.

This brings me to the issue of girth. It's hard to get a great comparison shot, but here goes...

Image

TTB: Resolza, Pattada, Dark Talon, Opinel, Misono UX10, Spyderco utility knife.

The Pattada's 3.5mm thick blade stock is absurdly thick by kitchen standards. Maybe not by Taktikal Knife Bro standards, but by kitchen standards it's a thickass knife. I cut an apple with it once and it made me want to kill myself. Halfway through the slice, the wedging was so much that the apple slices were splitting and cracking. I say this with love, since I LOVE THE PATTADA. Just not in the kitchen. The more slender Extrema Ratios are still too thick, which is a shame for my purposes. The dicing onions can get messy as the fat top of the blade pushes the different layers apart when you come down through the product. I had similar issues with the Spydiechef; full flat grinds are nice, but they can't compensate for steel that's 3mm thick. The Opinels are super thin -- too thin for real kitchen purposes. They're much thinner than either the Misono or the Spyderco utility knife, which are themselves much thinner than your ordinary upscale folders.

I suspect that problems with girth stem from the fact that many modern locking mechanisms require thick blade stock for secure lockup. You've gotta have a few millimeters of steel for liner locks or RILs or whatever else to click into. All that's fine and good. But what would be interesting to see is something that's thick in the lock but IMMEDIATELY thinned out as soon as the blade starts. By way of analogy to non-folding kitchen knives, many of the san mai blades made by Katsushige Anryu are very thick at the handle, but thin out extremely fast in the first inch or so of the knife (where the blade actually starts) and hold a thinner profile for the length of the blade. This is most dramatic on my nakiri, but all of my knives from him exhibit similarly thick blade stock near the handle:

Image

The spine starts out quite chunky (3.5mm+) but drops where the blade starts. The idea on the folder would be to keep the blade stock in the handle thick (3+mm) but have the part that extends beyond the handle be radically thinner. Keep it thick around the pivot, but thin it down a lot where the blade actually is. I don't know if that's feasible or desirable from an engineering standpoint, but it sure seems desirable from the standpoint of actually cutting food. Distal taper and thinner grinds can only do so much if you're starting from a thick chunk of steel. Alternatively, maybe it'd be better to start with thinner blade stock and use different styles of lock that depend less on blade thickness. I have no idea. I know precious little about folders.

Anyway, I'm still on the search for something that's long enough, thin enough, and sturdy enough to actually want to use in a kitchen. If such a knife exists, let me find it. If it doesn't exist, let them make it - long, lean, and slicey. Minimal belly. Some nice distal taper. In LC200N so it won't rust when you wash it...

A man can dream.
gingerninja
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#2

Post by gingerninja »

There is the spydiechef but a longer spydiechef 2 would be a great thing
twinboysdad
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#3

Post by twinboysdad »

Endura in the the new VTOKU steel?
Lebowski22
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#4

Post by Lebowski22 »

I absolutely hear you man, i end up doing quite a bit of food prep at other peoples homes with my folder due to them not having a handpicked set of thin stock carbon steel japanese kitchen knives. The wife and i cook a lot and are particular about our knives. I tend to use my s110v Military since it has a long enough blade for me to have good general usage. It is a little thick, and the particular handle ergonomics are more suited to general edc use then in the kitchen. But i make it work and s110v is stainless enough and holds an edge long enough i don't have to even think about it.

I was thinking perhaps the K2 might be something to look at, but its not stainless and the upsweep makes it more of an outdoor knife.

I don't know that there is a great answer for you, but i say try the Millie, it might surprise you. Plus you get to carry a Millie, so for my very specific and unique to me situation, it is the ideal option.


......... the Military i am sure is way thicker then you want. There isn't really a fantastic option from your wants that i can think of. I immediately thought Opinel when i saw the title. But obviously thats a very ill horse.

I have taken to purchasing a 6" and a 9" Victorinox and bringing one or the other, or both in a cheap plastic knife sleeve when i know i will be doing some prep. They are cheap so if i leave it its no biggie, and they are always sharper then the house alternative.


The new K390 Police really intrigues me, i want to check it out very soon as i think it would work well for my impromptu kitchen tasks.
seber
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#5

Post by seber »

How about a sharpening stone instead.
MacLaren
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#6

Post by MacLaren »

Actually, having both k390 and 10v, I would opt for the k2.
The k2 in 10v is just mean. And it's more stain resistant than you might think. Moreso than k390 imo.
Hope that helps.
btbyrd
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#7

Post by btbyrd »

I'd kind of forgotten about the K2; thanks for putting it back on my radar. It's in the ballpark with respect to length (though it's still shorter than the Extrema Ratios) but the upswept tip is a deal breaker shapewise. The blade's big, sure... but if the last third of it won't be making contact with the board, what's the use? That's why I'm more partial to Wharncliffe-ish blades where the spine falls to meet the edge, rather than having the edge sweep up to meet the spine. At least for the kitchen. I like the looks of the grind -- looks like it'd be great for slicing cured meats -- but it may still be too thick for things like onions. The blade height helps because the wedging is much more gradual, but ideally the spine would be thin enough that it doesn't need to be tall to avoid wedging.

It looks like a killer outdoor knife though. Like a Hulked-out, rude-n'-crude, ugly big brother to the Slysz bowie.
seber wrote:How about a sharpening stone instead.
I'd like to say I haven't done that, but I have. It's only appropriate in certain circumstances though... it's okay when I visit my parents, for instance, but not great with more distant relations. "I assumed your knives were super dull, so I figured I'd sharpen them for you..." makes for awkward pre-dinner conversation. It's also hard to carry a stone in your pocket. : :cool:
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ZrowsN1s
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#8

Post by ZrowsN1s »

My first thought was the native salt, but too short for you, and maybe too thick. What about the upcoming PE Pac Salt? Should be long, thin, and ffg.
-Matt a.k.a. Lo_Que, loadedquestions135 I ❤ The P'KAL :bug-red

"The world of edges has a small doorway in, but opens into a cavern that is both wide and deep." -sal
"Ghost hunters scope the edge." -sal
zhyla
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#9

Post by zhyla »

btbyrd wrote:II honestly don't know that folders have any real place in my kitchen
They don't really have a place in any kitchen, IMO. Spydie fans like to use them in the kitchen, it can work, but anything larger than a paring knife just doesn't fit well in a pocket. There's not really a work around there.

Why not just stick a kitchen knife in your car to use when you're out and about? Then you're not really size limited.

BTW most people have no idea about sharpening knives and are happy to have even strangers do it for them.
Nate
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#10

Post by Nate »

Not a Spydie, but are you aware of this?:

https://agrussell.com/knife/A-G-Russell ... G-137BKG10
:spyder:
SF Native
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#11

Post by SF Native »

I think the hundred pacer would make a great kitchen knife. It’s 4” of blade is pretty long for a folder. Has lots of belly so you can get some on a cutting board for slicing.
ross8425
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#12

Post by ross8425 »

I'll never understand using folders in the kitchen. At a campsite ? Ok. In the kitchen where you should have kitchen knives ? Yeah I am lost. I wouldn't want to eat what my knives are exposed to. Ymmv
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ChrisinHove
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#13

Post by ChrisinHove »

I’m with the OP.

I’d like an properly angled folding kitchen knife, frn handle, flow through/easily washable construction, 5-6” stainless blade.

Give it a strong closed detent and it’s a child-safe utensil for every kitchen.
btbyrd
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#14

Post by btbyrd »

zhyla wrote:
btbyrd wrote:II honestly don't know that folders have any real place in my kitchen
They don't really have a place in any kitchen, IMO. Spydie fans like to use them in the kitchen, it can work, but anything larger than a paring knife just doesn't fit well in a pocket. There's not really a work around there.
I'm inclined to agree with you about folders in the kitchen. But I don't know that anything bigger than a paring knife won't fit well in the pocket. Opinels do a pretty good job. So do traditional resolzas, which is very close to what I'm looking for in terms of blade length and girth. And the Dark Talon, while long, is slimmer than all of my ordinary Spydercos and disappears into the pocket with a deep carry clip. Admittedly, the pockets do have to be deep to rock the Dark Talon deep carry style, but I only have one pant pocket where that's an issue. And it hides out beautifully in the inside breast pocket of a sport coat.
Nate wrote:Not a Spydie, but are you aware of this?:

https://agrussell.com/knife/A-G-Russell ... G-137BKG10
I've seen those and the build is very nice, but they're chunky pocket monsters and are quite heavy. I have a janky Boker Magnum Outdoor Cuisine that's kind of similar, though much much much less nice. The Russell looks like a great picnic knife. The Boker is an okay picnic knife (hard to complain about its shortcomings when it's so cheap). But neither are things you'd want to carry around in your pocket. The Dark Talon's edge is longer than both of them, and is 50% to 66% lighter while still being thinner when closed than a Delica. In other words, it's an actual pocket knife rather than a camp knife or a car knife.
ross8425 wrote:I'll never understand using folders in the kitchen. At a campsite ? Ok. In the kitchen where you should have kitchen knives ? Yeah I am lost. I wouldn't want to eat what my knives are exposed to. Ymmv
Oh, I totally hate using folders in the kitchen. That's what kitchen knives are for. I had a long, mean spirited rant typed up once about how I hate seeing folding knife people with their short, thick, dirty blades clumsily hacking food into irregular chunks with their grubby monkey paws. IN THE FREAKING KITCHEN. And yet they purport to be knife enthusiasts. Gross. At a campsite? Okay. But in the kitchen, you should have kitchen knives. Unfortunately, most people's kitchen knives are a pile of hot garbage.

And while I wouldn't want to eat what my pocket knives are exposed to, a quick rinse should take care of that.
MacLaren
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#15

Post by MacLaren »

btbyrd wrote:I'd kind of forgotten about the K2; thanks for putting it back on my radar. It's in the ballpark with respect to length (though it's still shorter than the Extrema Ratios) but the upswept tip is a deal breaker shapewise. The blade's big, sure... but if the last third of it won't be making contact with the board, what's the use? That's why I'm more partial to Wharncliffe-ish blades where the spine falls to meet the edge, rather than having the edge sweep up to meet the spine. At least for the kitchen. I like the looks of the grind -- looks like it'd be great for slicing cured meats -- but it may still be too thick for things like onions. The blade height helps because the wedging is much more gradual, but ideally the spine would be thin enough that it doesn't need to be tall to avoid wedging.

It looks like a killer outdoor knife though. Like a Hulked-out, rude-n'-crude, ugly big brother to the Slysz bowie.
seber wrote:How about a sharpening stone instead.
I'd like to say I haven't done that, but I have. It's only appropriate in certain circumstances though... it's okay when I visit my parents, for instance, but not great with more distant relations. "I assumed your knives were super dull, so I figured I'd sharpen them for you..." makes for awkward pre-dinner conversation. It's also hard to carry a stone in your pocket. : :cool:
Your welcome.
For a pocket folder kitchen knife, I think it would be pretty nice actually. That and a SharpMaker and your in business.
No big deal. And, who cares if you wanna use a pocket knife in the kitchen. Do what ya want to lol.
MacLaren
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#16

Post by MacLaren »

btbyrd wrote:
zhyla wrote:
btbyrd wrote:II honestly don't know that folders have any real place in my kitchen
They don't really have a place in any kitchen, IMO. Spydie fans like to use them in the kitchen, it can work, but anything larger than a paring knife just doesn't fit well in a pocket. There's not really a work around there.
I'm inclined to agree with you about folders in the kitchen. But I don't know that anything bigger than a paring knife won't fit well in the pocket. Opinels do a pretty good job. So do traditional resolzas, which is very close to what I'm looking for in terms of blade length and girth. And the Dark Talon, while long, is slimmer than all of my ordinary Spydercos and disappears into the pocket with a deep carry clip. Admittedly, the pockets do have to be deep to rock the Dark Talon deep carry style, but I only have one pant pocket where that's an issue. And it hides out beautifully in the inside breast pocket of a sport coat.
Nate wrote:Not a Spydie, but are you aware of this?:

https://agrussell.com/knife/A-G-Russell ... G-137BKG10
I've seen those and the build is very nice, but they're chunky pocket monsters and are quite heavy. I have a janky Boker Magnum Outdoor Cuisine that's kind of similar, though much much much less nice. The Russell looks like a great picnic knife. The Boker is an okay picnic knife (hard to complain about its shortcomings when it's so cheap). But neither are things you'd want to carry around in your pocket. The Dark Talon's edge is longer than both of them, and is 50% to 66% lighter while still being thinner when closed than a Delica. In other words, it's an actual pocket knife rather than a camp knife or a car knife.
ross8425 wrote:I'll never understand using folders in the kitchen. At a campsite ? Ok. In the kitchen where you should have kitchen knives ? Yeah I am lost. I wouldn't want to eat what my knives are exposed to. Ymmv
Oh, I totally hate using folders in the kitchen. That's what kitchen knives are for. I had a long, mean spirited rant typed up once about how I hate seeing folding knife people with their short, thick, dirty blades clumsily hacking food into irregular chunks with their grubby monkey paws. IN THE FREAKING KITCHEN. And yet they purport to be knife enthusiasts. Gross. At a campsite? Okay. But in the kitchen, you should have kitchen knives. Unfortunately, most people's kitchen knives are a pile of hot garbage.

And while I wouldn't want to eat what my pocket knives are exposed to, a quick rinse should take care of that.
But...your looking for a kitchen folder correct?
btbyrd
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#17

Post by btbyrd »

MacLaren wrote: But...your looking for a kitchen folder correct?
Yes. For those times when you can't count on there to be a decent fixed blade around. I'm not looking for one single knife to EDC *and* cut up chickens with, like some of you freaks seem to do with the Police 4 or whatever. :D
vivi
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#18

Post by vivi »

This is the best folding kitchen knife I've tried:

Image

5.5" blade is the primary selling point in this context. Full flat grind gives it acceptable cutting performance, but you'll still want to drop the edge angle for food work. The blade shape works well. You have belly for angled slices and a long flat portion for chopping near the edge of the cutting board. The choil gives you room to choke up and use a chef knife grip.

One of the reasons I've switched to carrying fixed blades is I think they're easier to keep sanitary for cutting food. That's something else I'd consider. Personally I like my heavily reprofiled Aqua Salt. It's beefy enough I can split firewood with it, but it'll still dice up an onion really well. Also, being H1, corrosion isn't a concern. My Cold Steel Spike also works well in both roles, but narrow scandi grinds mean there can be a lot of wedging in thicker foods.
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Jazz
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#19

Post by Jazz »

When I go to someone else's house, they better cook for me. I do enough all day every day at work. At work, it's a 10" chef's knife and wharncliffe paring knife. That's it.
- best wishes, Jazz.
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Re: In search of a real kitchen folder

#20

Post by Bill1170 »

The AG Russell folding cook’s knife is the only folder I’ve seen that provides finger clearance for work on a cutting board. This one element really sets it apart. The Misono petty knife has decent relief for a small knife, but all the other folders will require using draw cuts with the handle up, or working on the edge of the board to gain finger clearance. But 6.9 ounces, oof! Not realistic for me.
Last edited by Bill1170 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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