Spyderco Forums

The Rhino news thread had me wondering. Where do you think Spyderco needs to expand their range?

So many of the new Seki offeings are well above what I can justify for a working knife and I don't generally buy knives if I don't plan to use them. The Lil temp and Dallara were pretty huge disappointments from a pricing standpoint. Losing the Rhino from the very affordable range is pretty sad as well. Really hoping we see some new stuff in the $50-75 range. Spyderco makes some of the best work knives in the market with the FRN classics, I just feel there is room to grow. I wonder how many great designs are missing out on wider appeal because of the price tag.

I'd say that interesting locking mechanisms like compression, CBBL, etc. in the $50-$100 range would be s great area to expand. Keeping blades 2"-3" might make it feasible even if S30V, XHP, etc. are used.

$75 to $100...Just bc I want to see more models/new models in frn/frcp

attila wrote:I'd say that interesting locking mechanisms like compression, CBBL, etc. in the $50-$100 range would be s great area to expand. Keeping blades 2"-3" might make it feasible even if S30V, XHP, etc. are used.

FRN handles would help, too.

I just don't know if Spyderco would give the Native series so much competition.

I think those "interesting locking mechanisms" are a lot more expensive to manufacture than people seem to think. We all want cheap, high quality knives made from premium material, loaded with bells and whistles and manufactured in the country where we live. That doesn't make it possible.

"FRN handles would help, too." But only if the molds already existed. FRN is only less expensive when the tooling cost gets spread out over tens of thousands of pieces. That's quite a gamble for a new model that might sell and might not.

yablanowitz wrote:I think those "interesting locking mechanisms" are a lot more expensive to manufacture than people seem to think. We all want cheap, high quality knives made from premium material, loaded with bells and whistles and manufactured in the country where we live. That doesn't make it possible.

"FRN handles would help, too." But only if the molds already existed. FRN is only less expensive when the tooling cost gets spread out over tens of thousands of pieces. That's quite a gamble for a new model that might sell and might not.

I'm talking about a FRN Tenacious or Persistence or Ambitous or Cat with XHP or maybe a Caly 3 with VG10 or maybe a FRN Chap spinoff or even a Military family knife (Millie, PM2 or Para 3) with FRN.

There would be some risk, obviously. But well-established knives in new configurations are higher in profitability (and way less risky) than a new knife with new molds. Spyderco's way to the bank doesn't necessarily mean a new knife actually needs to be a new design. I know I'd buy a $80 FFG VG10 Caly 3 or a $90 Resilience with XHP. Heck, I'd go absolutely bonkers over a $80 Delica with 204P!!!

I think those "interesting locking mechanisms" are a lot more expensive to manufacture than people seem to think. We all want cheap, high quality knives made from premium material, loaded with bells and whistles and manufactured in the country where we live. That doesn't make it possible.

That's what I thought too until the Rhino was announced with its compression lock. I figure a simple blade steel upgrade could be done for a modest price increase. For example, upgrading the Rhino with just XHP vs. BD-1 could be expected to raise the price from $50 to somewhere around $75. At least in my mind, that sounds reasonable and achievable. No bells and whistles are needed, just more desireable steels than BD-1 (no offense intended to BD-1 fans).

I said $100-150...plus or minus some. I'd like to see some more valuable models out of golden usa earth. Maybe some more high end steels in more existing models other then just the PM2...

Heck, I'd go absolutely bonkers over a $80 Delica with 204P!!!

So would most of the knife knuts on the forums. They would sell train loads. My guess is they would have to take a loss per knife of $20-40 to do this. In the long run is that sort of thing bad or good for business?

joe

The Mastiff wrote:

Heck, I'd go absolutely bonkers over a $80 Delica with 204P!!!

So would most of the knife knuts on the forums. They would sell train loads. My guess is they would have to take a loss per knife of $20-40 to do this. In the long run is that sort of thing bad or good for business?

joe

Joe - Knowing the manufacturing industry and retail sales of such products, my best estimate is that Spyderco is seeing about a 18-25% profit profit when a standard VG10 Delica 4 sells for $68 through one of its discount dealers. I'd easily imagine another $12 at retail more than pays for the difference in cost per unit to use 204P rather than VG10. As such, that might actually make a bit more money selling 204P Delicas at $80 than they do selling VG10 Delicas at $68.

What I don't know for certain is whether they'd need to produce the 204Ps here or in Seki City. My best estimate is that they'd do it in Seki City and that would cut the profit down to about to about 15% for all the 204P Delicas that sold for $80. However, we mustn't forget that most of the knives would be sold at or near regular retail prices, with only a few retailers offering them at the 40% floor discount Spyderco seems to be comfortable with.

So, if you sell half the units at 15% profit and the other half at 40% profit, I think you'd be in OK shape. Maybe not quite as good as 20% and 50%, but volume could easily offset this if Spydienuts were willing to show up in force to purchase such an offering. Essentially, it'd be up to us to make sure the sales were there. Johnny Everyman walking into the gun store and seeing a cool knife behind the counter is still going to buy it, even at $130. We'd need to buy two each at $80 from KW or similar if we want to be able to get them at that price.

From what I know about Spydercos pricing/profit margins I would say that your math is way off and I don't think we are gonna see a golden made Delica. The regular production ZDP Delica is $99 dollars at MAP and the HAP40 was about the same. They aren't gonna ship 204p to Japan and bring the price down $20. At $80 dollars I cannot see how they wouldn't be losing money. Your math has inflated profit margins and you underestimate the cost to upgrade. ZDP is a $30 upgrade so I am not sure why shipping 204p to Japan would only be a $12 upgrade. I am not really comfortable talking much more in detail about someone else's numbers so I'll leave it at that.

bearfacedkiller wrote:From what I know about Spydercos pricing/profit margins I would say that your math is way off and I don't think we are gonna see a golden made Delica. The regular production ZDP Delica is $99 dollars at MAP and the HAP40 was about the same. They aren't gonna ship 204p to Japan and bring the price down $20. At $80 dollars I cannot see how they wouldn't be losing money. Your math has inflated profit margins. I am not really comfortable talking much more in detail about someone else's numbers so I'll leave it at that.

I'm just using standard margins for American manufacturing concerns of "high-end" products. I am not quoting these as gospel for Spyderco or anyone else. I just surmise, knowing manufacturing, that it can be done, and I don't think it is as far off as you think.

If many of a manufacturer's largest dealers are selling all their products at a 40% discount over MSRP every single day, the manufacturer must make a profit on that, or it simply couldn't be allowed. MAP would have to be higher and so would the dealer cost of the product. If the smaller dealer businesses doing so were selling product for less than they had to pay the manufacturer for it, they'd fold from selling their precious inventory at a loss. One or the other has to be true. It is just simple economics.

It also isn't unusual for smaller runs of production models (such as ZDP and HAP40 or Lincolns or Caddies) to be priced higher at MAP, because a different kind of consumer is going to buy those products. People like you and me and the rest on this forum. We'll pay the premium for the perceived upgrade in steel quality. Kind of like the Lincoln version of whatever Ford you choose. Same car, same running parts, same manufacturing line .... just better leather and a 30% premium price that only cost Ford Motor Co. about a 10% premium to produce.

All that aside, I am all for a business making money. There is absolutely no other reason to be in business, as you can't be in business if you don't turn a profit. And most businesses aren't sitting around the conference table trying to figure out how they can trim their margins with new products. I just think it can be done and done rather easily. It doesn't mean it will or even should get done.

We can all dream, right? Can you imagine a Delica 4 made with 204P available at KW or such for < $100? We'd all go nuts and the divorce lawyers would get richer than everybody. :-)

I love Spyderco and I have NO idea because I'm a user and collector: not on the inside of the business, it's long term plan or having a vision of the knife market as a whole.

As a Spyderco collector, I know what I might like to see, but that is never pinned to a cost bracket and always about materials, design and the cool factor.....and with that in mind, I'm probably the last person to listen to on which price bracket to bolster

I may disagree with your math but if they made a 204P Delica for $100 or less I would be a buyer for sure.

I just want to see more Golden models (not variations of existing).
I have no issue with quality coming out of other countries, it is more of a pride thing.
They put out some new releases and I think, hey that is worth looking into, but even though the quality can be top notch, I'm still disappointed to see Japan, Taiwan, or Italy.

Probably going against the hive, but I'd like to see more high end stuff, mainly collaborate work with more/different custom makers, higher end materials and steels. :o :D

I focused on the 50-100$ range because I want more super steel FRN Dragonflys and Delicas. In particular a hawkbill Dfly.
*That's $50-100 MAP btw.

I know my tastes are not those of most Spyderco customers, so the only "holes" I see in the lineup are simply the result of the things I like best not selling well. There are 3 times as many models in today's Spyderco lineup as there were when I started collecting them 14 years ago. Spyderco introduced (or has plans to introduce) more new models this year than it introduced over the first ten years of it's existence. So I see an abundance of knives, albeit knives of little or no interest to me,in every one of those prince groups.

I chose 75-100 for various reasons.. :D John

delica's, LW super steel knives - that $70-$100 range is a great target. There is something so much better about a $95 knife vs a $105 knife. It is all mental, but sub $100 makes a big difference in my buying preferences. I own 1 knife over $100 - PM2, but 5-6 in $75-$100 range