Spyderco Forums

My sharpening skills have been improving (to a moderate level), but anytime I reprofile a knife, get a clean apex (at 30d, sharpmaker), and then put a microbevel on it I like the results from a functional standpoint. But, my Bevels are not as nice and neat as what you guys get. They are not 100% uniform and not a crazy mirror polish.

When you guys reprofile, do you move from Coarse, to med, to fine and spend a lot of time making the bevels mirror?

I use CBN rods at 30 d, once I get my apex I do use the med and fine rods at that setting, but I do not spend a lot of time there. Do I need to spend more time with med/fine at Bevel stage OR just clean up my technique with the CBN rods?

Get it sharp, proper sharp on the coarse rods. then it is basically like sanding down a piece of furniture with progressively finer grits to remove scratches from the previous stone. Personally i don't care much if it gets mirror polished. I stop at 600 grit on my kitchen knives since anything over that is a waste of time IMO :)

The Sharpmaker medium and fine rods aren't a good choice for polishing the whole bevel. It can be done, but they load up when doing that kind of work, and have to be cleaned often. I leave my bevel at a coarse or medium bench stone finish and then microbevel on the Sharpmaker.

me2 wrote:I leave my bevel at a coarse or medium bench stone finish and then microbevel on the Sharpmaker.

Same here!

Ideally for most of my EDC knives there should be no bevel to polish :p , just a micro-bevel (i.e. flat convex from spine to edge, with a micro for durability).

As other said it's super important that it is very sharp at 600grit FIRST. After that though I sharpen at 800 and 1200, and then leather strop at 5micron, 3.5m, 2.5m, 1.5m, 1m, .5m, and .25micron. If you think pocket lightsabers are "overkill" and are satisfied with merely "a really sharp knife" edge polishing isn't necessary at all , but if you insist on your knives being as sharp as they can possibly be, a little extra time polishing will be rewarded with scary sharpness. :D

Larry_Mott wrote:Get it sharp, proper sharp on the coarse rods.

While I generally (always until just recently) agree with this philosophy, I thought I'd mention a recent experience.

Typically I'll work up through Atoma plates from 140->1200 and call it good. Some variety depending on needs, but that's the most typical scenario.

Enter Maxamet N5. Pull out the 140s. Start working a new thinner edge. Everything is going fine until I stop to look at that edge. Even to the naked eye it was a disaster. Huge chips and divots. Magnification showed the true extent of the damage. Very, very tough to work out progressing through the grits. Finely got it sorted on some ceramics but I'm never doing that again on that steel. It was a lot of work to undo all that damage.

Yes, I realize this isn't the scenario here, not Maxamet, cbn not diamond stones, but I wanted to offer a cautionary tale. It's not always best (or in this case, even possible) to apex with your coarsest stone. It may well be best to work into the apex with a smaller grit, or even a different media all together.

Ken

I think if you just spend your time through the grits in order and if you use the ultra fine rods and if you strop with green, you will get pretty darn shiny.

Usually going with the flats on all of the stones will help you by keeping the same pressure across a wider area than the corners.

Try slicing a rope with those polished edges. They're only good for scalpels and wood carving, in my opinion. A nice, fine toothed edge is best, for most things. Coarse edges are good too. Just ask Lance.

kbuzbee wrote:

Larry_Mott wrote:Enter Maxamet N5. Pull out the 140s. Start working a new thinner edge. Everything is going fine until I stop to look at that edge. Even to the naked eye it was a disaster. Huge chips and divots. Magnification showed the true extent of the damage. Very, very tough to work out progressing through the grits. Finely got it sorted on some ceramics but I'm never doing that again on that steel. It was a lot of work to undo all that damage.

I had a similar experience with an S30V blade. The edge just continually crumbled, even with light pressure. Thought about sending it back but persisted. After removing quite a bit of metal with a couple dozen sharpenings, it now seems normal, and takes a very good edge off an eze-lap coarse, 250 grit plate.
Never had this happen with any other blade.

Jazz wrote:Try slicing a rope with those polished edges. They're only good for scalpels and wood carving, in my opinion. A nice, fine toothed edge is best, for most things. Coarse edges are good too. Just ask Lance.

If a rope is under tension, I just have to touch the blade to the rope with light pressure and it usually just cuts right through it without having to make any sawing motions or effort really. Pull cutting is just as effortless. Have you honestly had problems cutting rope with a sharp knife? I mean I know what you mean about "working edge" vs "initial sharpness" here and indeed a saw tooth edge may be better for that task, but I assure you I'm having no trouble at all cutting rope with a knife that can split hairs. I go for the high edge retention steels like Hap40, m4, ZDP, maxamet, so once I get them sharp, they are easy to maintain at that level of sharpness with stropping.

ZrowsN1s wrote:As other said it's super important that it is very sharp at 600grit FIRST. After that though I sharpen at 800 and 1200, and then leather strop at 5micron, 3.5m, 2.5m, 1.5m, 1m, .5m, and .25micron. If you think pocket lightsabers are "overkill" and are satisfied with merely "a really sharp knife" edge polishing isn't necessary at all , but if you insist on your knives being as sharp as they can possibly be, a little extra time polishing will be rewarded with scary sharpness. :D

zstrop.jpg

That is one **** of an edge!

Shiny bevels are a waste of time. They don't cut any better than knives with coarse grit bevel finishes, and in fact certain things will stick to the blade more when the bevel has a high polish (certain foods).

Polishing the edge itself is another story, but there is no reason at all outside of cosmetics to polish the steel behind it. The only other reason is trying to squeeze the maximum amount of corrosion resistance possible out of a steel, but you're better off just choosing a more suitable steel to begin with.

Jazz wrote:Try slicing a rope with those polished edges. They're only good for scalpels and wood carving, in my opinion. A nice, fine toothed edge is best, for most things. Coarse edges are good too. Just ask Lance.

Hair whittling edges can't be beaten if you solely intended to whittle hair. They don't even work overly well on a skinner and tend to stick. :eek:

A clean burr free apex finished on a 600-1200 grit hone or medium (brown) Spyderco ceramic is pretty hard to beat when it comes to cutting stuff.

Either ways your SM probably isn't the best tool for polishing bevels. :)

jpm2 wrote:

kbuzbee wrote:

Larry_Mott wrote:Enter Maxamet N5. Pull out the 140s. Start working a new thinner edge. Everything is going fine until I stop to look at that edge. Even to the naked eye it was a disaster. Huge chips and divots. Magnification showed the true extent of the damage. Very, very tough to work out progressing through the grits. Finely got it sorted on some ceramics but I'm never doing that again on that steel. It was a lot of work to undo all that damage.

I had a similar experience with an S30V blade. The edge just continually crumbled, even with light pressure. Thought about sending it back but persisted. After removing quite a bit of metal with a couple dozen sharpenings, it now seems normal, and takes a very good edge off an eze-lap coarse, 250 grit plate.
Never had this happen with any other blade.

And this happened to me in ZDP-189!

tonijedi wrote:

jpm2 wrote: I had a similar experience with an S30V blade. The edge just continually crumbled, even with light pressure. Thought about sending it back but persisted. After removing quite a bit of metal with a couple dozen sharpenings, it now seems normal, and takes a very good edge off an eze-lap coarse, 250 grit plate.
Never had this happen with any other blade.

And this happened to me in ZDP-189!

Interesting. Thanks for the input, guys. I've read about initial edges doing this (theories about small over heating in the initial sharpening seem to prevail) and getting through that first level of steel resolved the issue. I thought I'd gotten deep enough into it the rule that out (it was my initial thought as well) but possibly not.

We'll see what happens down the road (where I will have totally forgotten both that experience and this conversation;) and return to my usual routine using the Atomas, haha!

Ken

Polished bevels and edge refinement are different. You can set your bevel with a 320 grit stone and then microbevel up to 8000 or you can polish your bevel to your desired finish and then microbevel with a 400. I assume we are talking about polishing the bevel here and not edge refinement. I will give my two cents (which is worth half a cent with the exchange rate) on both of them.

First polished bevels. While I do think that there are some scenarios where a polished bevel reduces friction and improves performance I think that most of the time it makes very little difference. I think the main reason for polishing bevels is to take pictures of them and post them online or to impress your buddies.

Edge refinement is different. It really depends on what you are cutting and how much time you want to spend sharpening. For wood carving and shaving refined edges are great. For tearing through cardboard or processing game they aren't that good.

I usually leave my bevels at a diamond finish of 400 to 600 (which are the stones I set my bevel with) and microbevel with either the medium or fine spyderco ceramics. This is on about 90% of my knives. I do have a few for woodcarving that I like finer but for my EDC folders the coarser edge is better and certainly faster to maintain. This is coming from somebody who actually enjoys sharpening.

Three fingers of whiskey and an hour or so to myself in my shop with my stones is my idea of a good time but I still find polished bevels to take more time than they are worth.

kbuzbee wrote:

tonijedi wrote:

jpm2 wrote: I had a similar experience with an S30V blade. The edge just continually crumbled, even with light pressure. Thought about sending it back but persisted. After removing quite a bit of metal with a couple dozen sharpenings, it now seems normal, and takes a very good edge off an eze-lap coarse, 250 grit plate.
Never had this happen with any other blade.

And this happened to me in ZDP-189!

Interesting. Thanks for the input, guys. I've read about initial edges doing this (theories about small over heating in the initial sharpening seem to prevail) and getting through that first level of steel resolved the issue. I thought I'd gotten deep enough into it the rule that out (it was my initial thought as well) but possibly not.

We'll see what happens down the road (where I will have totally forgotten both that experience and this conversation;) and return to my usual routine using the Atomas, haha!

Ken

I don't think it matters much which steel you are sharpening when it comes to coarse abrasives or how much pressure you use. Ultimately you'll smash the edge.

I think it's more a matter of physics. Coarse abrasives simply leave a deeper scratch pattern. They do remove material faster than fine abrasives but the trade off is a broken edge you need to refine and it's more prevalent with harder more brittle alloys.

It's like working timber with a rasp. After you've roughed it out you need to take out all the gouges the rasp left.

Personally I wouldn't attack a blade I liked in good condition with anything rougher than a 220 grit SiC stone. :)

It seems like this is a microcosm of SE vs PE argument, with most of you being of the opinion that SE is better. The argument tends to be that PE has better initial sharpness and SE will "cut when it's dull". This is no different than the highly refined edges vs. coarsely refined edges argument. So in that vein as long as I don't let my knives get dull, a highly refined edge should always perform better than a coarsely refined edge initially. Now if I cut for 3 days in a row without sharpening, the coarser edge (now dull but still toothy) may start to out perform the (now dull but toothless) highly refined edge.

As for food sticking to the edge, I know a few sushi chefs and they mirror polish the heck out of their edges with expensive 5000 grit water stones before they process food with them (food sticks to the bevels not the polished edge, if you had rough bevels and a polished edge like a sushi knife, food wouldn't stick to it). Maybe I'm over simplifying and I'm just plain old wrong (it's happened before ), but in my mind, more refined edge = sharper, and sharper always = better. :D

ZrowsN1s wrote: So in that vein as long as I don't let my knives get dull, a highly refined edge should always perform better than a coarsely refined edge initially. Now if I cut for 3 days in a row without sharpening, the coarser edge (now dull but still toothy) may start to out perform the (now dull but toothless) highly refined edge.

This statement is too general to be true in my experience. It depends on too many variables like what you cut, how you cut, what steel it is, how you sharpen and what angles you sharpen at. I have a Puukko (in D2) for wood carving that is zero ground at 9 degrees per side that likes really refined edges up to 8000 and I have my cardboard eating S110V mule with a 30/40 degree setup that likes a coarser edge around 600. The puukko will push cut that tissue paper that you use in gift bags. I do like highly refined edges too.

If I take that same Mule and finish it at 600 it will sail through fish scales and deer hide but if I take it all the way to the Spyderco UF stones it will slide all over the place and I will have to apply lots of downward pressure to make it work. Both edges will come off the stones able to whittle hairs but they will not perform the same and edge retention will not be the same. Since I have to use more downward force and more sawing with the finer edge it wont last as long.

For EDC stuff like opening bags of chips, trimming threads and peeling apples then sure the finer edge works better and I do sharpen my Super Blue Delica up to a high level for EDC lightsaber fun but for many types of work the coarser edge just performs better. I have a hard time whittling hairs with my SB Delica because it is usually such a refined edge that it just sails through. We all use our knives differently and all have different expectations so nobody is wrong but for me it is a case by case scenario.

Here is an edge that was made by setting the bevel at 30 with a coarse diamond stone and then putting a slight microbevel on (35 degrees maybe) with the Doublestuff. As soon as it would shave clean off the brown side I tried to whittle hairs and it almost wanted to do it but was grabbing too hard and cutting right through. I then did three passes per side on the white side of the stone and it was making nice curls off of my rather thick hair. The bevel is not polished and the edge is not all that refined. I am not sure why I would need a knife sharper than this and it is why I don't ever bother stropping. I can get a knife this sharp in under a minute if I do not have to reprofile it.

I am not trying to talk anybody out of stropping or out of refining their edges up to 12,000 or whatever they like but rather just want to make the point that you do not have to do that to achieve high performance. If you are going to put in all the time it takes to progress through all the grits then when you are done you should be sharp enough to whittle hairs or else you have wasted a lot of your time since that level of performance can easily be achieved without all that work.