Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

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Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

Postby SpyderEdgeForever » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:53 am

I have read and studied up on some of the ideas about which is better and I'd like your viewpoints on this everyone: Is there truly and essentially a big difference when it comes to health, between organic food and non organic, as far as certified organic food production goes? I have to admit, in the past I steered clear from certified organic foods because I had thought there was no difference, but now I see there is definitely a difference in both taste and quality, and, while this may be my own opinion and feel, it seems the certified organic fruits are more nutritious somehow than the others.

The only downside is that generally organic food tends to be a bit pricier, but that is the trade off, just as a quality knife costs more up front, but, what you get in return is worth the extra cost.

I think one of the big concerns with Non-Organic food is the Genetic Modification aspect. That is also a question I have for you all: Do you think the companies and scientists and advertising people who say "Don't worry, GMO foods are okay and there is no proof that they do serious damage to your health" are in the same league with the doctors of years past who said "Don't worry, cigarettes are okay and healthy."? I know people who will not eat the non organic yellow corn chips, for example, and will only get the organic white and yellow corn chips, when making things like salsa and other dishes.

What is good is that organic food is now very mainstream and the larger the market is for it the cheaper the prices tend to be.

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Re: Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

Postby awa54 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:45 pm

As far as taste and nutrition, the growing conditions (soil, climate, water levels) and specific cultivar of the veggie/fruit are probably more important than organic vs. conventional. I think that often the organic product is "better" because it's a premium price product, so the grower or distributor goes to more effort to ensure the quality. Also a certain amount of organic produce is heritage varieties and/or less processed than conventional produce. In many cases those attributes can add up to better nutritional value.

What drives many to buy organic (aside from following trends) is the fact that with no information on production methods of conventional foods, the only way to be certain that a chemical or strain of plant *isn't* in your food is to buy a product that specifically forbids that ingredient from being in it.

In terms of health, some pesticides and herbicides are truly benign (as far as current science can determine) and others have lingering questions about safety vs. usage practices... I won't pretend to know all the details here, but suffice it to say there are plenty of currently used growing aids that I'm not pleased to see in my food chain, especially since there is no requirement for their use to be disclosed on packaging for foods produced using them.

My beef with GMO foods (both for human consumption and for animal feed) is that almost all of the research done on the safety of these foods is done by the companies who are producing them, the conflict of interest is blatant... Also the techniques and understanding of the field are in their infancy, it's almost like radiation; plenty of people were harmed by that scientific advance before it was understood well enough to be used in a safe and beneficial way. IMO, GMO foods are not ready for "prime time" yet, maybe in twenty or fifty years, but not now and especially not with the profit motive driving the development process almost exclusively.

I think that responsible and sustainable crop production using what ever is the best solution for a given crop or region is better than *just* organic or *just* big-Ag.


Then there's the the excessive use of antibiotics in meat production...
-David

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Re: Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

Postby Doc Dan » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:44 am

Even if the food is 'organic" (I thought all plants were organic) you still do not know what type of soil it was grown in, nor what the water source is. I remember a few years ago when a lot of people were poisoned with Ecoli from a contaminated water source that was used to water the vegetables.
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Re: Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

Postby StuntZombie » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:29 pm

Spyderedgeforever,

The majority of foods you've ever eaten are "GMO". They may not have been created in a lab, but they were engineered by people to yield a product that was hardy and edible. For example, some of the grains we eat were engineered through selective breeding thousands of years ago. GMO foods can also be engineered to be resistant to certain fungi and other harmful organisms, which can help cut down on the use of pesticides, fungicides, and herbicides. What if we lived in a world where people that were allergic to nuts could still consume them, because the protein that caused allergic reactions had been removed?

As for organic, that's mainly
a label used to charge more for a product that is usually no higher quality than regular produce. There are exceptions of course, but any difference in taste is likely to be influenced by the perception that paying more means it's a higher quality item. Organic produce hasn't been found to contain any more vitamins or nutrients than non-organic. Even taste tests have found that people couldn't differentiate between organic and non-organic produce. Another issue with organic farming is the types of pesticides used. People tend to think that just because something is natural, that it is safer, when that couldn't be further from the truth. There are instances where organic pesticides have been found to be more harmful, because they affect more than just the target species. Organic farming is less efficient as well, yielding less product per acre. If every farm were to switch to organic right now, it would require the clearing of more land to make up the difference. You would also see an increase of the number of deaths related to starvation every year.

Ultimately, both forms of farming have their issues, and I think the answer is combining aspects of each.

I tend to believe that most of our health issues stem from deficiencies in our own genetics. More and more research is finding that our genes may play a larger part of our well being than previously thought. It might explain why people who eat "healthy" on a constant basis still end up with heart disease or other issues that we once thought could be predicted by our diets.
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Re: Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

Postby awa54 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:29 pm

StuntZombie wrote:Spyderedgeforever,

The majority of foods you've ever eaten are "GMO". They may not have been created in a lab, but they were engineered by people to yield a product that was hardy and edible. For example, some of the grains we eat were engineered through selective breeding thousands of years ago. GMO foods can also be engineered to be resistant to certain fungi and other harmful organisms, which can help cut down on the use of pesticides, fungicides, and herbicides. What if we lived in a world where people that were allergic to nuts could still consume them, because the protein that caused allergic reactions had been removed?

As for organic, that's mainly
a label used to charge more for a product that is usually no higher quality than regular produce. There are exceptions of course, but any difference in taste is likely to be influenced by the perception that paying more means it's a higher quality item. Organic produce hasn't been found to contain any more vitamins or nutrients than non-organic. Even taste tests have found that people couldn't differentiate between organic and non-organic produce. Another issue with organic farming is the types of pesticides used. People tend to think that just because something is natural, that it is safer, when that couldn't be further from the truth. There are instances where organic pesticides have been found to be more harmful, because they affect more than just the target species. Organic farming is less efficient as well, yielding less product per acre. If every farm were to switch to organic right now, it would require the clearing of more land to make up the difference. You would also see an increase of the number of deaths related to starvation every year.

Ultimately, both forms of farming have their issues, and I think the answer is combining aspects of each.

I tend to believe that most of our health issues stem from deficiencies in our own genetics. More and more research is finding that our genes may play a larger part of our well being than previously thought. It might explain why people who eat "healthy" on a constant basis still end up with heart disease or other issues that we once thought could be predicted by our diets.
StuntZombie, I'm with you on almost every point that you make, but not the fallacy that hybrid cultivars are the same as GMOs... you can't cross breed corn with anything but other corn cultivars, let alone fish. High yields, drought resistance and pest resistance are great attributes, but getting them by inserting genes from other species is not understood well enough yet to fully anticipate potential long term issues. Right now Monsanto and other BioTech companies are pushing "products" with very short track records and many of them have already proven to have major environmental repercussions, why should we think that their food safety is any different? Many GMO products *may* be totally safe for both us and the environment, but it isn't proven yet.

Possibly more important than food reactions, is the fact that pollen from manipulated plants can go rogue and alter conventional plants in unanticipated ways (same deal with interbreeding of GMO animals), also some of the GMO alterations either produce, or convey resistance to chemicals and then those chemicals can become the issue.

I believe that some time in the near future genetic manipulation will be a huge benefit in commercial crop and livestock science, as well as a powerful tool for human health, but right now we're at the beginning of that path and the repercussions of getting it wrong are potentially very serious.
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Re: Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

Postby StuntZombie » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:26 am

Interestingly enough, the fish gene experiment was halted because it was found to be ineffective. It wasn't worth the effort in the long run. And everything I've read through has stated unequivocally that animal genes are not used in GMO's at this time. So, I wouldn't worry about scaly tomatoes any time soon. ;) I know there has been some success with inserting bacterial DNA in sweet potatoes in the lab, but it also seems the bacteria has been doing that on its own for quite some time now. That's perhaps the most interesting thing about the whole GMO industry, the fact that we do something in a lab, only to discover that nature has been doing it on her own.
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Re: Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

Postby kbuzbee » Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:52 am

I tend to buy organic and feel "better" for doing so. I think forcing the plant to defend itself growing benefits us in ways we don't begin to understand yet.

But the one area I try to stay organic most is wheat. The current process of growing non organic wheat is (IMO) nuts. When they are ready to harvest, they spray the field with Roundup to kill it off. Yes, this lets them get 10% more harvest but that trace amount of Roundup in your bread just can't be good for you. Again, IMO, it's a big contributor to the current increase in what people are calling gluten intolerance. Seems completely reasonable to me that their gut symptoms are more due to Roundup than to gluten (and yes, I realize that modern varieties of wheat have been bred to increase the gluten content, but still...

Ken

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Re: Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

Postby demoncase » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:02 am

There's been a bunch of double-blind studies on Organic food in the UK and EU....Every result thus far has been "There's no measurable difference in the health of people eating conventionally farmed stuff compared to organic stuff"

However- and it's an ocean-liner sized however at that- there is more to the whole organic concept than you: It's about improved animal welfare and reducing environmental impact. Salting your field with lots of NKP fertilisers and broad-spectrum pesticides might make those carrots a bit longer and fatter, but it does terrible damage to the beneficial insects, the watercourse and everything else in the area.

An organic free range chicken is much more expensive than a battery farmed one.....but I find I will always buy the more expensive one if I know the animal had something approaching a life before it ended up on my plate. That's just sensible in my book.....

I don't believe that organic food is making me a fitter, stronger person- but it does make me feel better about eating farmed meat.
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Re: Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

Postby demoncase » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:14 am

Of course: if you REALLY worry about what gets dusted on your veg then the only solution is to grow it yourself!
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Re: Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

Postby JD Spydo » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:06 am

kbuzbee wrote:I tend to buy organic and feel "better" for doing so. I think forcing the plant to defend itself growing benefits us in ways we don't begin to understand yet.

But the one area I try to stay organic most is wheat. The current process of growing non organic wheat is (IMO) nuts. When they are ready to harvest, they spray the field with Roundup to kill it off. Yes, this lets them get 10% more harvest but that trace amount of Roundup in your bread just can't be good for you. Again, IMO, it's a big contributor to the current increase in what people are calling gluten intolerance. Seems completely reasonable to me that their gut symptoms are more due to Roundup than to gluten (and yes, I realize that modern varieties of wheat have been bred to increase the gluten content, but still...
Ken I pretty much just quit eating wheat products all together. And it really doesn't factor into the "Roundup" problem that you wisely pointed out to us but it's the "GMO" factor that scares me the most. My old boss ( the one I converted to Spyderco :rolleyes: ) went on a totally gluten free diet and he lost 80+ pounds in just shy of 5 months. His rapid weight loss literally blew my mind. He also claimed to have much more energy than he had since he was in his twenties :eek: .

The only way I would eat wheat products in this day and age if I were to buy it from an Amish or Dutch Quaker family and knew 1000% for certain it wasn't GMO or hybrid in any way. It's interesting to note that the "powers that be" have a huge underground warehouse of heirloom seeds stored. That's been documented by some very reliable sources. If I make my way to South Missouri this summer like I plan on doing I'm going to get all the heirloom seeds I can get my hands on and try to grow most of my veggies and fruits. Because the tomato believe it or not is a fruit and it's one plant you can still easily get heirloom seeds for.

The bottom line to all of this "frankenfood" insanity boils down to one simple common denominator>>> GOD HAD IT RIGHT TO BEGIN WITH!! But leave to man to adulterate even our own precious food supply :(

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Re: Organic vs Non Organic Fruits/Vegetables/Juices/Etc

Postby kbuzbee » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:28 pm

JD Spydo wrote:Ken I pretty much just quit eating wheat products all together. And it really doesn't factor into the "Roundup" problem that you wisely pointed out to us but it's the "GMO" factor that scares me the most.
And I'm right with you on that one as well. GMO is nothing like cross pollination (though they'd love people to believe it's just the same only more "scientific") GMO foods are created BECAUSE they are doing things that can't be done by cross pollination.

My main point on Roundup is it's proven to kill gut bacteria and we are only beginning to understand the importance of the microbiom as they call it. Combine the high level of sanitation we live with today coupled with the reduced variety of food we eat has reduced the diversity in our gut by many times over just the last few generations. Add a known toxin to that and you're just begging for problems.

Avoid GMOs and avoid toxins like Roundup. Two great rules in my book.
JD Spydo wrote: It's interesting to note that the "powers that be" have a huge underground warehouse of heirloom seeds stored. That's been documented by some very reliable sources. If I make my way to South Missouri this summer like I plan on doing I'm going to get all the heirloom seeds I can get my hands on and try to grow most of my veggies and fruits.
I love growing heirloom seeds. Unfortunately our yard is 90% shade and my gardens don't tend to do well..

One of the more interesting things I've read is what happens when GMO plants pollinate non GMO plants. The GMO engineering gets into the "fruit" and seeds of the conventional plant. There was a case a year or two ago where GMO corn was shown to have pollinated a neighboring non GMO field. The seed company sued the adjacent farmer for unlicensed use of their technology. That's scary.
JD Spydo wrote:Because the tomato believe it or not is a fruit and it's one plant you can still easily get heirloom seeds for.
It is a fruit and the ones I grow are pre "heirloom" They are classified as "ancient" They are smaller than cherry tomatoes. A wild variety whose fruit is about the size of a large blueberry. More nutrition in a couple of those little guys that a 2 pound beefsteak tomato, haha The cool thing is they reseed themselves every year. Just let a few drop in the fall. They grow in the only sunny patch I have.

http://www.eagleridgeseeds.com/store/ve ... ild-detail
JD Spydo wrote:The bottom line to all of this "frankenfood" insanity boils down to one simple common denominator>>> GOD HAD IT RIGHT TO BEGIN WITH!! But leave to man to adulterate even our own precious food supply :(
Amen to that!

All in the name of profit but under the banner of 'feed a starving world'

Ken


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