Earth is round and orbits the sun. FACTS.

[Ales D]

Well.. if you think Earth is flat you shouldn't be allowed to carry a knife...that is,PERIOD. :)

[Ankerson]

The Climate change/Global Warming thing is really nothing more than a marketing ploy to make a small group of people extremely rich.

All one has to do is follow the money.

However Pollution and damage to the environment/wildlife are real, most of it's due to human greed.

Humans will destroy everything if left unchecked so it's good things like the EPA exist.

Humans somehow put themselves above all the other life on the planet, they forgot that we are all part of the Planet just like all other forms of life.

The planet was here long before humans and it will be here long after humans are gone.

I'm gonna agree with this. I get along with both science and religion and see obvious benefits in both. When either uses it as an excuse for doing wrong then I will oppose them as I can. I'm as stubbornly uncontrollable as anyone I've ever known and won't accept manipulations from those that want to use religion or climate science or whatever as a way to control me. That is the bottom line of what we are speaking about. I'm usually pretty good at figuring out what is right and wrong. All people have that ability , even the truest sociopath/psychopath and yes, poor folks from the inner city with little education who ate lead paint chips as toddlers. Some just don't want to do what is right. That fact is no excuse for a government or any other agency to exert controls on me. Tithes or taxes to save the earth because cuddly cute polar bears arre dying ( Not true but it is one of the manipulations being used ) just annoy me. A crook is a crook whether a politician or not. Same with trying to remove peoples rights because someone else abuses them which is the gun control argument in this country. Take honest citizens rights because Chicago and LA have gang problems or terrorist attacks in NYC. Makes sense right?

Believe it or not a church I was invited to and went to once wanted to schedule an audit of my finances to make sure I tithed my full share, 10% minimum gross . Knowing me as you do you can imagine my response. :) The guy who invited me couldn't understand why I was so angry.

All types in this world yes, but I sure won't volunteer to be around them. I did my time serving the country and the public and have the scars to prove it.

Joe,

I know what your reaction was. :D

Mine would have been exactly the same.

I never fell into that buying ones way into heaven thing.... Never bought it personally.

What does GOD need money for?

Jim

[ChrisinHove]

The Climate change/Global Warming thing is really nothing more than a marketing ploy to make a small group of people extremely rich.

All one has to do is follow the money.

I think there's more money in oil, natural gas, the internal combustion engine and all their infrastructures than anything else on our planet.

All one has to do is follow the money ...

[arnold ziffle]

[Ankerson]

The Climate change/Global Warming thing is really nothing more than a marketing ploy to make a small group of people extremely rich.

All one has to do is follow the money.

I think there's more money in oil, natural gas, the internal combustion engine and all their infrastructures than anything else on our planet.

All one has to do is follow the money ...

2 completely unrelated subjects to each other.

The Oil,gas etc has helped Society advance to the point that it is today as just about everything we currently use is tied into that industry one way or another. Remove that and Society would be set back over 1,000 years almost overnight.

The other, the marking BS that is Climate Change/Global Warming creates nothing other than money for a select few and that was the plan from the beginning. They have tried a number of scare tactics over the decades from the Ice Age scare back in the 70's to the current Climate Change/Global warming. None of it does anything positive at all looking at the big picture, well it's not supposed to in the 1st place.

[ChrisinHove]

Naah. I don't buy it. Renewables are small beer compared to fossil fuels.

I think we'll have to "agree to differ" on this one!

[The Mastiff]

Naah. I don't buy it. Renewables are small beer compared to fossil fuels.

I think we'll have to "agree to differ" on this one!

Yes it is true that rewenables are smaller in value today. That doesn't change the fact that some are using climate change to line their pockets while others seem to see it as a way to redistribute wealth in the truest leftist fashion. This naturally has caused people such as me to doubt even what may be true in the whole swamp of today's current state of over politicized climate science.

[Ankerson]

Naah. I don't buy it. Renewables are small beer compared to fossil fuels.

I think we'll have to "agree to differ" on this one!

Yes it is true that rewenables are smaller in value today. That doesn't change the fact that some are using climate change to line their pockets while others seem to see it as a way to redistribute wealth in the truest leftist fashion. This naturally has caused people such as me to doubt even what may be true in the whole swamp of today's current state of over politicized climate science.

Joe,

I can't believe people actually believe it. :confused:

But then I suppose since there are people who believe the Earth is only 10K years old and flat so anything is possible. LOL :D

JIm

[bearfacedkiller]

I don't pick a side.



But I do love Carl Sagan and have the tshirt to prove it. This was a birthday present. :D

[Doc Dan]

I can tell all of you for certain that climate change is happening. In fact, that is the nature of the earth (in fact, the continental drift is putting more places in the arid zone). But, it is definitely happening at an accelerated rate. I travel to many places and have lived in many places, and I have seen the change in climate and how it has been affecting the environment. True, some see an opportunity for money, but the threat is very real. Remember, at one time western America was an inland sea and so was much of the South. Now, that water did not simply disappear. It was a warmer time. Now we are seeing rising temperatures that we can document, and areas normally covered in snow, without any for the first time and that we can also document. We are seeing rising sea levels and tornadoes and bad storms in places that have never had them, and that too, we can document. Whether this is a cycle, or the result of human activity, we can debate all day. But, the facts are, that the climate is changing, rapidly.

[Ankerson]

I can tell all of you for certain that climate change is happening. In fact, that is the nature of the earth (in fact, the continental drift is putting more places in the arid zone). But, it is definitely happening at an accelerated rate. I travel to many places and have lived in many places, and I have seen the change in climate and how it has been affecting the environment. True, some see an opportunity for money, but the threat is very real. Remember, at one time western America was an inland sea and so was much of the South. Now, that water did not simply disappear. It was a warmer time. Now we are seeing rising temperatures that we can document, and areas normally covered in snow, without any for the first time and that we can also document. We are seeing rising sea levels and tornadoes and bad storms in places that have never had them, and that too, we can document. Whether this is a cycle, or the result of human activity, we can debate all day. But, the facts are, that the climate is changing, rapidly.

Weather goes in cycles and there is plenty of real data on that.

[Mad Mac]

Even if human activity is not contributing to global warming, and I believe it is, one thing is clear. There are too many people.

Two hundred years ago, there were one billion people on earth. One hundred years ago, there were two billion. Now, there are more than seven billion. Some scientists think that in the future it will level off at 11 billion, but I don't know why it would.

The cheapest, fastest, safest way to keep the earth a nice place to live is to get the population back to an appropriate level, less than two billion by some estimates. This can be easily accomplished with zero population growth.

If women are limited to no more than two children, some will only have one and some will have none, we will have negative population growth. In the fullness of time, we will reduce the population to the level required for an environmental and ecological sweet spot.

[Ankerson]

Even if human activity is not contributing to global warming, and I believe it is, one thing is clear. There are too many people.

Two hundred years ago, there were one billion people on earth. One hundred years ago, there were two billion. Now, there are more than seven billion. Some scientists think that in the future it will level off at 11 billion, but I don't know why it would.

The cheapest, fastest, safest way to keep the earth a nice place to live is to get the population back to an appropriate level, less than two billion by some estimates. This can be easily accomplished with zero population growth.

If women are limited to no more than two children, some will only have one and some will have none, we will have negative population growth. In the fullness of time, we will reduce the population to the level required for an environmental and ecological sweet spot.

I remember reading about this subject years ago and I do tend to agree that there is an over population problem.

What the real answer is to the problem, nobody really knows.

The answer that they give just won't happen due to a large number of reasons, I have gotten into this discussion a number of times over the years.

I believe that eventually the human population will reach a point that something will happen that will cut down the numbers by a vast amount, likely around 80% over a short period of time. That will be much more horrific and brutal than the proactive population control could ever be.

Humans being what they are in general will always take the hard path that will lead to mass destruction and misery rather than taking a progressive proactive approach. History shows this to be true over and over because humans never learn from their mistakes as a whole so they always repeat them.

[The Mastiff]

The cheapest, fastest, safest way to keep the earth a nice place to live is to get the population back to an appropriate level, less than two billion by some estimates. This can be easily accomplished with zero population growth.

If women are limited to no more than two children, some will only have one and some will have none, we will have negative population growth. In the fullness of time, we will reduce the population to the level required for an environmental and ecological sweet spot.

I'm not disputing the facts but I promise anybody who thinks they are advanced enough to make such decisions over other humans is a deeply flawed person and for sure won't get co-operation from me. Not in this country anyways. :)

We have gone from 250 to 320 million here in the US in my lifetime. I can tell a big difference.

[Ankerson]

The cheapest, fastest, safest way to keep the earth a nice place to live is to get the population back to an appropriate level, less than two billion by some estimates. This can be easily accomplished with zero population growth.

If women are limited to no more than two children, some will only have one and some will have none, we will have negative population growth. In the fullness of time, we will reduce the population to the level required for an environmental and ecological sweet spot.

I'm not disputing the facts but I promise anybody who thinks they are advanced enough to make such decisions over other humans is a deeply flawed person and for sure won't get co-operation from me. Not in this country anyways. :)

We have gone from 250 to 320 million here in the US in my lifetime. I can tell a big difference.

Joe,

I tend to agree, I wouldn't want to be the one to be involved in making that choice for the masses. Whatever they would end up being they would be very hard and not well received for sure.

However something does need to be done if the human race wants to survive, either humans will make the choice or nature will make it for them.

Personally I believe some sort of proactive measures would be much more intelligent than doing nothing other than adding to the problem like they are now.

That is the hard reality in the end, the human race can't keep going in the current direction that's it's going and survive.

They will become extinct by their own doing in the end, by doing NOTHING when they could have prevented it. This is something I that firmly believe will happen knowing human nature and Society the way it is.

Nature/The Planet will always prevail in the end one way or another, that is the hash reality that humans can't and never will overcome.

Nature doesn't need us, we however do need nature to survive. That is something humans seem to forget all too often.

I am glad I won't be around to see the fallout of whatever ends up happening, it won't good by any means and likely extremely brutal.

The planet will be better off in the end and nature will recover over millions of years until any evidence of human existence is gone.

Like you said the evidence and facts are all there and really not disputable.

[LDB]

Part of the problem is that one side doesn't care about facts, only feelings, on this and every other matter. And everyone is expected to respect and conform to their feelings.

[bearfacedkiller]

Some scientists think that in the future it will level off at 11 billion, but I don't know why it would.

I do not think that it will level off but it will self correct, probably in a severe way. Over population is a bubble waiting to burst.

Pandemics and starvation. Most likely the first one.

If you study the plague in Europe it was a combination of unsanitary conditions and overcrowding. That was the system self correcting. We may be able to manipulate nature but it will still hand us our *** if it wants to.

In our situation technology can come into play. Just like in animal farming, the use of clean practices and medicines allows animals to be more crowded than they would normally be able to tolerate but even that has it's limits and the excessive use of antibiotics is bad and in the case of farming it WILL bite us in the *** eventually. Diseases that are ever more tolerant of antibiotics is not a good thing.

We have removed many of a deer's natural predators and that is why we must control their populations. If a division of wildlife, or whatever it is called in a state, allows the deer population to get too high the population will actually suddenly drop off due to disease and starvation and can fall to a very low level. Over population is a bubble waiting to burst and there are many examples of this in nature. Over populations do not level off, they drop off.

Many animals in the wild go through this rather naturally. Rabbits and some fish have cycles of boom and burst. Maybe in the MUCH bigger picture we will face some similar booms and bursts in the eons to come. If we make it that long. :eek:

I am actually a super positive person so sorry for the negative outlook on this. I do truly believe in people and believe that if we stick together that we can overcome anything. Like Carl Sagan said I believe that we will colonize space and out last our planet. Only time will tell and I won't be around to know if it happened or not but I plan to die believing it. :)

[The Mastiff]

Don't feel bad for speaking truths Bear. They are what they are no matter our feelings. The fact is the use of fertilizers and pesticides produced mainly from petroleum allow our world to hold this many people. we still have localized corrections with famine in places even now. Take away the ability to produce and transport the fertilizers and pesticides and the fall would be rapid ( 5 to 10-15 years). 6 billion or so would go. One good supervolcano or mild asteroid likewise could have the same result through crop failures. 2 bad years harvests is all it takes. A relatively small area produces most of the grains and other crops that feeds civilization. Our climate self changes fairly rapidly even without humans and we are benefiting from an unusually stable period in earths history. We are just coming out of a down trend called the Maunder minimum ( the temp records begin during the end of this unusually cold period making it easy to show rapid heating which can be blamed on human activity) and a substantial amount of research shows we might be trending down again due to recent weakening of solar activity which is what caused the last "mini ice age".

As the climate record from the ice sheets and oceans silt layers show once the earth reaches a certain level of snow cover the albedo changes to reflect more heat ( notice when there is snow on the ground it stays colder as heat is reflected). That is how Ice Ages kick off. Everyone here knows we are still in an ice age right? We are just lucky enough to be during a warm stable part of this . This inter-glacial period has allowed us to build our civilization. Pretty amazing for such a short time I think. Whatever comes next hopefully I won't be around for. :)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... rature.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ta.svg.png

[bearfacedkiller]

The Pale Blue Dot.

This is a picture of Earth from 3.7 billion miles away. This is our home. We should cherish it.

The lines are actually just an optical effect caused by the sun which was out of frame.

"A mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam" -Carl Sagan

[Ankerson]

Some scientists think that in the future it will level off at 11 billion, but I don't know why it would.

I do not think that it will level off but it will self correct, probably in a severe way. Over population is a bubble waiting to burst.

Pandemics and starvation. Most likely the first one.

If you study the plague in Europe it was a combination of unsanitary conditions and overcrowding. That was the system self correcting. We may be able to manipulate nature but it will still hand us our *** if it wants to.

In our situation technology can come into play. Just like in animal farming, the use of clean practices and medicines allows animals to be more crowded than they would normally be able to tolerate but even that has it's limits and the excessive use of antibiotics is bad and in the case of farming it WILL bite us in the *** eventually. Diseases that are ever more tolerant of antibiotics is not a good thing.

We have removed many of a deer's natural predators and that is why we must control their populations. If a division of wildlife, or whatever it is called in a state, allows the deer population to get too high the population will actually suddenly drop off due to disease and starvation and can fall to a very low level. Over population is a bubble waiting to burst and there are many examples of this in nature. Over populations do not level off, they drop off.

Many animals in the wild go through this rather naturally. Rabbits and some fish have cycles of boom and burst. Maybe in the MUCH bigger picture we will face some similar booms and bursts in the eons to come. If we make it that long. :eek:

I am actually a super positive person so sorry for the negative outlook on this. I do truly believe in people and believe that if we stick together that we can overcome anything. Like Carl Sagan said I believe that we will colonize space and out last our planet. Only time will tell and I won't be around to know if it happened or not but I plan to die believing it. :)

So you are saying that humans might smart themselves into extension?

I do think that's possible as I have read things that have been done over years to force things to work that really don't. They always end up creating more problems in the end.