Is this normal? S110V Edge Retention + Bearing cutting a track on Manix 2

[usernames_are_hard]

Hi Guys,

First post, longtime Spyderco fan. I am having some problems with my new Manix 2 Blurple CPM S110V and I am interested to know if I am experiencing normal behaviour or not. I saved up for it and I absolutely love its shape and function but I worry that mine might be unwell It is two weeks old and has not been carried EDC or used for anything other than test cuts in cardboard and paper. Also, I've spent about 30min each night absent-mindedly opening and closing it while I'm on the couch.

1) I've attached some pics of the area where the bearing meets the rotating blade cam and it looks like the bearing is cutting a groove. Do your Manix 2's look the same?



2) The action is very stiff and "juddery" in the sense that during part of its travel it goes through a series of micro slip-grip-slip-grip movements which make the tip of the blade look like a stop-go animation when closing. I can deploy with a very strong thumb flick but there is no way I could deploy using a middle-finger flick. The blade will not swing itself closed even when the ball-lock is held back and the knife is shaken with moderate force. It has not loosened up over time.

3) Edge-retention: I rolled the edge within 20min of getting it home. The factory edge was less sharp than my PM2 and less sharp than other Spydercos in the store but it was the only S110V G10 Manix in the store so I bought it. When I got home I cut 1m of double-wall cardboard with only moderate force ( my dominant hand is in a cast ) and it immediately ceased to be shaving sharp across a portion of the blade. It would not cut any hairs at all. Under a microscope I could see very small sections that were rolled or missing as well as scratches up the grind from the cardboard. I added a 20DPS micro-bevel with my Sharpmaker UF stones and I was surprised by how responsive the steel was to sharpening. It did not take very long at all on the Sharpmaker before it became shaving sharp again. And that was using only very light strokes. However, after only 20min of cutting paper its shaving performance dropped by around half and needed to go back to the Sharpmaker again

I know this is an essay but I spent quite a lot of money on this knife ( $230 USD in my country ) and I really love it but would like to know if any of this is normal. Possibly a heat-treatment problem affecting edge-retention, allowing bearing to groove blade cam, and making it very easy to sharpen ?

I guess my options are:
1) Disassemble and inspect lock ( possibly voiding my warranty )
2) Ship off-shore for warranty inspection ( expensive and time consuming, plus needless if this is normal behaviour )

Lastly, what lubricant should I use on the lock system? I have not lubed it in the 2 weeks that I have had it but really feel like I should - although my PM2 has been fine without it.

Thanks for your help. I'm still a huge Spyderco fan and truly admire the lofty goal of function over good-looks

[zacmangray]

I would send it in for warranty. Sucks your out of the states. That though doesn't look normal. I have four M2's and not one of them act the way you have described. And I haven't seen a groove being cut into any of them.

[farnorthdan]

It sounds like you might be dealing with a wire edge/burr, I would re-profile and strop, see if you can get a new edge. Have you tried lubing the pivot, might help with the drag or there might be a bit of assemble debris in there hanging up. what I would do if it was mine is give it a nice warm soapy bath, good rinse then blow out with compressed air and lube. If it's still acting up then consider sending it back for replacement or to the SFO W&R and let them take a look at it.

Oh,,,one more thing, welcome to the forum :)

[Evil D]

I know shipping costs suck but such is life when you buy from overseas (I've been there myself many times). It needs to go back to Spyderco. Edge retention aside that groove in the tang absolutely shouldn't happen. The edge retention I would blame on the factory edge, as this is not uncommon for factory edges even after sharpening. Cliff Stamp did a couple videos on the Nilakka that gives great explanation to this. Basically there is weakened steel caused by belt/high speed sharpening that needs to be sharpened away before you really see what the steel can do, and even then your sharpening skills had better be at their best with this steel because burrs are quite easy to create and even harder to remove.

[Sharp Guy]

Of the 5 Manix 2s I have on hand at the moment, only 1 has ball bearing symptoms similar to yours but I don't think it's nearly as extreme. It's a translucent blue BD1 lightweight model and I noticed a couple weeks ago that it's not quite as smooth as my others and I can feel a very slight stuttering feeling when I open and close the blade using the thumbhole. The action is still pretty smooth, is easy to flick open, and the blade falls closed when I release the lock. So I didn't think much of it until I read your post. I just took that knife out and looked at it and it had a very light line on the tang/camming surface but nothing like yours. I took it out in the garage and put a little oil on a cotton swab and wiped the tang. It turns out the line was actually dirt and I was able to wipe it off. I cleaned up the rest of the internals, put a small drop of oil on the ball bearing, and loosened the pivot a tiny bit. It's improved but I can still feel the very slight vibration/stuttering feeling when I work the blade open and closed with my thumb. It's almost like the ball bearing is a little out of round. It's not a problem as the knife is still pretty smooth and it functions great. If it was like yours and it didn't improve with a thorough cleaning and pivot adjustment I would definitely send it in to Spyderco and let them take a look at it.

[Wanimator]

It's the ball bearing galling on the harder steel or vice versa from inadequate lubrication/lubricant, this could be fixed and instead of galling there could be an even higher polished line in case of wear if they used a ceramic ball instead of steel, I actually have a thread suggesting this

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72603

The edge just needs a proper resharpening, I expect nothing from factory edges. I have a knife with the CBBL that actually has a silver line of dullness like that.

[SuckSqueezeBangBlow]

I had to give my YO2 & PM2 a soapy bath as suddenly they became juddery. It fixed them right up.

[usernames_are_hard]

Sorry guys, I was called away to a work emergency so could not respond.

I think I'll have to send it away unfortunately. It sounds like the galling that I am experiencing is unusual, and that the stuttering and drag is far more pronounced than others have encountered.

Regards the edge-retention, I'm generally very careful to avoid carrying a wire edge and quick look under a 100x microscope showed that the apex was very clean and crisp. It may well be as Evil D said, that the factory grind process overheated the edge steel similarly to Cliff's Nilakka. It would be interesting to re-profile and test further but I think I'll just send it back.

Part of me wonders whether all of these symptoms are linked to a poor heat treat but I don't know enough about knife making to be able to tell. If the blade wasn't hardened correctly this could cause the hardened ball to gall the soft tang and this in turn will lead to the sticky action as the ball grinds the groove with each open/close. This could also explain poor edge retention if the blade was overly soft. It's all speculation and conjecture though, I am no expert.

Thanks for welcoming me to the community. You guys are a great bunch!

PS: Any tips on appropriate lubricant for Spydercos ?

[farnorthdan]

I use Nano oil, just ordered a new tube of 10w as a matter of fact.

[anagarika]

Not sure if it's normal but I'd try some WD40, it should clean away the debris from the lock-ang interface.
Several sessions of sharpening will demonstrate true nature of the steel.

However, it may render the knife no longer new enough to be returned to the dealer. If it's a lemon, the dealer (assuming it's authorized) should resolve for you.

[awa54]

The bearing track in your picture looks exactly like the one on the tang of my S110V Manix 2 (not LW), however my knife falls free and has no grittiness to the opening or closing action. Neither my S30V M2 or my XHP M2LW have a track like this where the bearing rides. I took a set of dissecting forceps (hardened stainless steel) and ran them over the discolored area on the tang, if there is any galling present it's too small to catch the sharpened tip of the forceps, it also doesn't scratch or rub off, so I'm not really sure what it is, but is doesn't seem to affect performance on my knife at all.

As far as the stiff action goes, have you adjusted the pivot tension yet? The Manix can be set with very light pivot tension and still show no blade play, all it takes is a few moments of careful adjustment. A drop of appropriate lube on the pivot probably won't hurt either, though I'd go light, as too much oil could attract grit to the bearing/lock area which would almost certainly make your symptoms worse.

P.S. S110V isn't a great fine edge steel IMO, I like its performance, but a coarser edge does better for my purposes (and lasts far better). My best real-world sharpness results have been had by just doing a couple strokes on the fine rods, after applying a 40 deg. microbevel with the medium rods on the Sharpmaker.

[usernames_are_hard]

Thanks awa54, I'm still new to Spydercos, my only other Spyderco is a PM2 and I haven't had to perform any pivot adjustments on it so I'm not across the process.

What do I need to do in order to adjust the M2 pivot? Just slightly back off the screw on one side? Both sides?

[tripscheck'em]

Edge retention: many factory edges are burnt or slightly burnt, depending on the company and the steel. What this means is that you need to grind away some of that burnt steel. Just use your medium ceramic rod and basically sharpen your knife edge. It usually doesn't take many sharpening jobs to expose the fresh steel.

as for that line, can you actually feel an indention? If not, its likely just some pocket junk rubbing off from the friction, or corrosion, I've had that before on my Stretch. It its actually cutting an indention into s110v then I'd definitely send that back.

[freebird610]

The line on your bearing track doesn't look all that abnormal to me. I have Three M2's all with that same steel. All have some type of line there. I would imagine it is mostly oil that you could wipe off with a cotton swab if you try. But there is likely some slight amount of wear going on which I think is normal especially in the breakin process. The action of yours does seem odd. The action on mine are all glossy smooth. I would try adding a drop of oil to the pivot and lock areas. I bet this would do wonders for the smoothness. That would be my first advice. I would try that and then see how it does. If it is still tight you may want to consider loosening the pivot ever so slightly. Could just be too tight. As far as the edge retention is concerned I'm not really sure what to tell you there. I haven't had issues with mine but I also haven't used them very hard and they get stropped. I'll let more educated individuals chime in on that.

[Evil D]

While heat treat issues are always possible, I think with Spyderco it's probably at the very bottom of the list of possible problems. Personally I will blame my own sharpening ability before I blame heat treat every time.

[bearfacedkiller]

The edge problem could be many things. I think it is more important to address that line first. If that is an actual groove that you can feel with your fingernail and not some gunk that can be wiped off then that knife needs to be returned. If that does clean up to reveal a unworn surface then move on to the edge. For starters I would reprofile that thing and put fresh edge on it with fresh steel.

[PolarisDesu]

Hmmmm I got mine overseas too. The first thing I noticed was that the edge grind was slightly asymmetrical, but a very minor detail, after re-profiling I would say they look the same now. But I feel the steel is really really strong, without signs of wear on the inner groove for grippiness like in yours... BUT! I can see wear on the steel around the axis, again, not as pronounced as yours. But the thing that we both acquired these knives overseas is what calls my attention...

[anagarika]

Mine also has line like that. I think it's steel polishing each other that shows as line because it's becoming glass/mirror like while the surrounding tang steel is satin rubbed or having oil residue, dirt/grime.
Edge hasn't been used hard, so no experience yet to compare.

[usernames_are_hard]

Great timing PolarisDesu. I just received my replacement Manix today!

The action on the new Manix is splendid. The first thing I did when I received it was to accidentally cut myself on a free swinging drop :D The first Manix would never free swing so I obviously formed some bad habits during that time.

The replacement is glassy smooth without any of the hesitation or micro-judders. The new Manix has a very slight track on the back of the tang but it is not wide or discoloured like the precious Manix. I think that "tracking" is normal but "grooving" ( i.e. scraping a tool over it and being able to detect it in a tactile fashion ) is probably not. I'm not sure how much of the action issues were related to the strange problems with the bearing-tang interface and now we will probably never know sadly.



I worry that I may have created the original problem with the way I one-hand close the Manix. Because it didn't free-drop, when I wanted to close it I would put continuous pressure on the back of the blade using my index finger ( as pictured ). At the same time I would use my thumb and middle finger to pull back the lock. This way the blade would swing around with the pressure of my finger when the lock reached it's disengagement point. The trouble with this is that I am essentially trying to force the blade closed in the lead-up to the disengagement. The only force being applied is the amount of force that I can deliver with one outstretched finger but I suppose it is being applied at a critical time where the ball is meeting the 90-degree edge of the beginning of the tang-race and perhaps this edge on the tang under pressure could cut the ball slightly?. Of course this is speculation on my behalf and the materials are probably capable of this kind of abuse.

Now I can just free drop with my fingers away from the blade path. How does everyone else one-hand close the Manix?

@PolarisDesu: I bought it from my local Spyderco dealer which happens to be outside of the USA but I have no doubt that it is a genuine Spydie. Bevel has a very slight imperfection but well within normal tolerances. Overall a very good quality knife.

[Igi964]

Congratulations to your new Manix. It's a great knife. Actually right now my favorite. I even changed the ball bearing in it for a ceramic one 3 months ago and it still doesn't shows no sign of wear so far. There is a line on the blade, but not very good to see. And it's definitely not a groove. I like to play with it a lot, it has a slightly different sound after the swap. Louder and sharper if it makes sense. Blade drops free, so I close it that way. Pull the lock and let the blade shut down itself. Very cool. It's a joy to flick open and close. My wife doesn't like it, though