What steel stays hair whittling sharp the longest?

[vivi]

If I use one of my pocket knives, I sharpen it before I go to bed that same day.

I do not care about working edges at all.

What I care about is the upper 10% of edge life. I'm talking freshly sharpened and whittling slivers off a single thin hair, to still scraping off arm hair without much discomfort.

Anything past that, I don't care. I never let my knives get that dull. If I'm ever going to be cutting enough things that it will get past that point, I either have a dedicated tool I don't care about (box cutter) or I brought a sharpening device with me.

So, that being said, what steels would work best for me?

[farnorthdan]

For me Cruwear and Super Blue seem to hold the hair splitting sharpness with light to moderate use, like you though, I don't let my blades get very dull. As far as holding a sharp edge a long time but not the hair topping sharpness I would say M4 and S110V. HAP40 somewhere in between.

[Evil D]

Generally speaking I think lower carbide/higher edge stability steels are what you're looking for. But, how long it holds that super sharp edge is going to depend 100% on what you're cutting, there's just no way around that detail. You could take the top 20 steels in this category and sharpen them to the point that they pluck free hanging hair out of thin air, but if you take those 20 steels and cut 1 foot of carpet, the edge might be destroyed on all of them. Another thing to consider, and this really goes hand in hand with steel choice, is how you sharpen it....edge finish/angle/etc.

This is also an area that I've always been on the other end of the spectrum from. I have always leaned towards extreme edge retention, because that's what my needs have been. Aside from 1095 and some other similar carbon steels, I haven't experimented with most of the steels that will excel in this area, because to me what's the use of that high level of sharpness if you lose it the first time you cut something abrasive? And that's what I've always cut, so they've been of little use to me. But, my needs have changed over the last year or so, and now I'm playing with more carbon steels and even using plain edge H1 more than ever before.

So, I know this isn't much of an answer but I think you should think long and hard about your sharpening routines, what grit edges you tend to use on your knives, and realistically what you think you'll be cutting the most. After that, I think probably the most obvious choices are going to be 52100/HAP40/Super Blue/M4/Cruwear, and then if you want to stay with stainless I'd say probably VG10 is among the best that Spyderco offers, but also check out any of the "lower end" steels, which are going to be regarded as lower end because the trend these days is towards high edge retention, so steels like 8CR13MOV/BD1/N690Co don't get a lot of respect but they may be perfect for what you're looking for, and they're also generally far easier to sharpen too.

[DrtyHarry]

From what I have noticed....and I'm not an expert in steel, but I would say S110V, 52100, M4, M390. My PM2 in S110V refuses to dull!!



Harry

[Cujobob]

This has been studied scientifically (through precise cutting tests) and most steels don't differ much in how fast they lose peak sharpness. One would think that lower carbide steels should better higher carbide offerings.

[The Mastiff]

Vivi, you are looking for steels that can have small carbides, good grain structure at the highest hardness you can get that will do whatever tasks you need done without self destructing. Bluntcut has been doing some interesting work on this though lately he has branched off into really pushing the steels until they break. He uses steels like 10xx, W2, Cruforge V, Maybe 52100 too ? He also has threads on Blade Forum about these things. He is even pushing steels past the point where conventional wisdom says they shouldn't go to and getting surprising results.

As far as Spyderco releases the 52100 Millie is an obvious one. Super Blue another. Higher carbide fraction steels like 3V, Cruwear on up through CPM M4 /HAP 40 were all done by Spyderco to enhance performance more than durability . When we see factory models coming out between rc 61.5 -63.5 on these alloys it's apparent Spyderco is choosing performance over durability/warranty return concerns. Perhaps it's because those models are more marketed towards AFI's and not the box store crowd.

The ZDP models are still pretty good at the thin edge slicing stuff amazingly enough for a steel with 3% carbon and 20% chrome. The 10V in the one model they used it on ( Farid's K2) is an excellent cutting steel though we don't talk about it much here.

It's a tough choice for me to be honest. I'm getting to know the 52100 Millie and really liking it. The Super Blue, HAP 40/ CPM M4, and Cruwear are typically getting selected for the hardest cutting/slicing tasks with me selecting the higher carbide HAP 40 models when needed, and Super Blue when I resharpen it often. 52100 I'm still getting to know in the millie.

Joe

[Ankerson]

From my own testing there really isn't any difference between the steels at that level of sharpness.

It will have much more to do with sharpening talent and what one is cutting than what steel the knife is made out of.

I saw zero difference at that level of sharpness between Super Blue and S110V in a measured sharpness test using a sharpness tester and cutting cardboard as the test medium.

The results from that mirrored what I have been seeing in my other testing over the years.

Now once you get past that 1st 5% in the dullness curve things change a lot....

The interesting thing to me however is that this subject seems to be coming up more as time goes on, not sure why and what the purpose of it all is.

[Ryno]

I assume whatever steel is used in my Gillette will hold high sharpness the longest. It whittles hair for weeks, sometimes months. I've heard they use AEB-L or Sandvik in razors.

[Evil D]

I assume whatever steel is used in my Gillette will hold high sharpness the longest. It whittles hair for weeks, sometimes months. I've heard they use AEB-L or Sandvik in razors.

If by Gillette you mean a shaving razor, like the disposable kind, then it probably has more to do with being a super thin blade with a super thin edge. A barber's razor will whittle hair for quite a long time if that's all you ever use it for, but if you go and cut up some boxes/carpet/rope with that same razor the edge is probably going to die off pretty fast. I'd say edge geometry and edge finish have a bigger impact on this subject than the actual steel type, and anyone who has played with a Nilakka will understand that. That knife will pluck hair like nothing else because the edge is so thin, and it's S30V. You could zero grind just about any steel that's stable enough to take a zero grind and it would whittle hair forever, or at least until you started cutting more abrasive materials. But, I also think that if super fine/thin edges are your goal, that some steels will perform at that level better than others.

[bearfacedkiller]

I think the better question is; What steel will support the lowest edge angles? Like David said this has a lot to do with geometry and like Jim said this also has a lot to do with sharpening ability and technique. Some people find it easier to achieve a high level of sharpness with some steels than others and highly skilled sharpeners can get highly wear resistant steels sharper with more stable edges than less skilled sharpeners can. Jim did a very good test with S110V and Super Blue mules that show no difference in retaining extreme sharpness but he also seems to be able to achieve a very high level of sharpness with rather coarse edges with any steel. On the other hand there are plenty of people who feel that edge stability is very real and have their own test to back up their theories. This topic still gets debated a bit. I find that I can get carbon steels the sharpest the easiest but prefer the balance between ease of sharpening and edge retention that I get from some of the tools steels like 4V, Cruwear, PSF27, D2, HAP40 or M4. For some reason, probably my sharpening ability and technique, I get those steels to hold high levels of sharpness very well.

[Ankerson]

I think the better question is; What steel will support the lowest edge angles? Like David said this has a lot to do with geometry and like Jim said this also has a lot to do with sharpening ability and technique. Some people find it easier to achieve a high level of sharpness with some steels than others and highly skilled sharpeners can get highly wear resistant steels sharper with more stable edges than less skilled sharpeners can. Jim did a very good test with S110V and Super Blue mules that show no difference in retaining extreme sharpness but he also seems to be able to achieve a very high level of sharpness with rather coarse edges with any steel. On the other hand there are plenty of people who feel that edge stability is very real and have their own test to back up their theories. This topic still gets debated a bit. I find that I can get carbon steels the sharpest the easiest but prefer the balance between ease of sharpening and edge retention that I get from some of the tools steels like 4V, Cruwear, PSF27, D2, HAP40 or M4. For some reason, probably my sharpening ability and technique, I get those steels to hold high levels of sharpness very well.

Edge stability is only a very small part of it from what people think edge stability means, by itself the term edge stability means nothing without knowing and understanding all of the factors together.

There are a lot of factors on that topic and all of the elements that go into it, and all of them matter.

Edge stability is one of the vastly overrated terms a long with Impact Testing, the terms again by themselves mean nothing and aren't quite as important as some believe they are. Start thinning steels out to knife blade thickness and a lot of them are much closer than most would believe.

I don't think most people really understand how important it really is to get a clean burr free apex when sharpening.

And that leads to a lot of issues and misconceptions.

Matching the edge refinement to the cutting tasks is also important.

So yes as you stated it all does tend to generate conversations and personally I tend to stay out of them as a rule these days for a variety of reasons. Mostly in an effort to keep my blood pressure down. :D

[Bodog]

A lot of variables but I think generally speaking the highest steel matrix hardness combined with the highest toughness combined with the highest carbide content combined with proper sharpening techniques will lead to an edge that will last the longest. Simple to think about, hard to obtain.

Having said that, I've messed with some pretty high end steels and I've not really seen any keep a hair whittling edge long enough to stand out above any others. As far as the ease with which a knife cuts, well, you need the thinnest blade that can handle the work you're doing without flexing (unless you need it to) or breaking.

Then it comes down to what you're cutting and how. I think chasing specific steels is a fruitless game. Understanding the classes of cutlery steels is a much more fruitful endeavor.

With all that said there's not a class of steel that holds a ridiculously keen edge more than another if the heat treatments are good and it's an actual cutlery grade steel. You need the steel matrix to hold up and the carbides to stay in place. The edge shouldn't roll, chip, or wear down. Those are all functions of the general terms of strength, toughness, and carbide volume. You need to figure out which one is the main culprit causing your edge to degrade and beef that area up. That's also why people differ so much in which steels they're comfortable with and which they recommend. They expect everyone else to cut the same kind of stuff in the same manner.

So far my go to knife steels depending on what I normally use knives for is vanadis 4E with a relatively thick blade for rough use, M390 with a thin profile for EDC, and 52100 and 15V for kitchen and yard work. Each for the reasons mentioned above. Relatively thick, somewhat hard vanadis 4E class for rough work because it's pretty tough at 61+ RC with mediocre carbide volume. Thin, high hardness M390 for EDC because it's essentially maintenance free and cuts like a demon and I don't need to do crazy crap with it. 15V in the yard and kitchen doing cutting work where there's no backing. Super aggressive cutting and very little need to keep touching it up. High hardness 52100 for cutting board work because it's super thin, super hard, and super easy to touch up but it stains ridiculously easy and looks horrible. It still makes extremely fine push cuts like a laser and does what I want it to.

Your mileage may vary, but if you touch up your knives every day and don't want to constantly clean and oil your blades then I'd go with something that's easy to work with like 440C, CPM154, AEBL or 13 or 14c. If you don't or you cut a lot of stuff throughout the day and can't touch it up then go with 10V, 15V, Vanadis 10, S110V, or S125V. If you want a more balanced steel that's also tough then go with 3V, 4V, M4, PD1, Cruwear, Zwear, Vanadis 6, PSF27, CPMD2, etc. If you want that level of of toughness or more and don't care about staining or rust then go with 5160, 52100, 1095, etc. If you want really high toughness then go with S7, 4140. etc. If you want stain and corrosion resistance then go with nitrogen based steels if/when you can find them.

In the end though, most people could really get by with CPM154 or a cleanly melted 440C. Anything more than that and it's really only because you care enough to learn about steels and what's best for different applications, aka a steel junkie.

[bearfacedkiller]

Here is the test of Jim's I referenced.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... -Test-BESS

A rather simple google search will lead you to Cliff's forum which is rather critical of this test. Form your own opinion. I am still trying to form my own. In the end I think you should just find what works best for you because it appears to me as though sharpening technique is the biggest factor in edge retention. I agree with Jim that forming a clean apex of undamaged and unstressed steel with NO bur is the most important part and that many people struggle with that.

[Ankerson]

Here is the test of Jim's I referenced.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... -Test-BESS

A rather simple google search will lead you to Cliff's forum which is rather critical of this test. Form your own opinion. I am still trying to form my own. In the end I think you should just find what works best for you because it appears to me as though sharpening technique is the biggest factor in edge retention. I agree with Jim that forming a clean apex of undamaged and unstressed steel with NO bur is the most important part and that many people struggle with that.

Sharpening is the most important factor because if that isn't done correctly in the 1st place then everything that follows is basically irrelevant.

The key is not to over think the process and I tend to believe that a lot of people do. :D

[Donut]

I find ZDP sharpened with one of the finer DMT stones will keep a very sharp feeling slicing edge. It cuts thin paper for a very long time.

[Joshua J.]

I basically gave up on keeping anything scary sharp. I remember one time I did a test between ZDP-189 and AUS-8 on cardbaord, ZDP seemed to keep a super sharp edge about twice as long, which meant doing two slices instead of one.

On the other hand, because my ZDP Caly 3 been ground down to and edge profile of about .005" thick, it will continue to do a very good job of cutting many things long after it "feels" almost completely dull.

[Ryno]

I assume whatever steel is used in my Gillette will hold high sharpness the longest. It whittles hair for weeks, sometimes months. I've heard they use AEB-L or Sandvik in razors.

If by Gillette you mean a shaving razor, like the disposable kind, then it probably has more to do with being a super thin blade with a super thin edge. A barber's razor will whittle hair for quite a long time if that's all you ever use it for, but if you go and cut up some boxes/carpet/rope with that same razor the edge is probably going to die off pretty fast. I'd say edge geometry and edge finish have a bigger impact on this subject than the actual steel type, and anyone who has played with a Nilakka will understand that. That knife will pluck hair like nothing else because the edge is so thin, and it's S30V. You could zero grind just about any steel that's stable enough to take a zero grind and it would whittle hair forever, or at least until you started cutting more abrasive materials. But, I also think that if super fine/thin edges are your goal, that some steels will perform at that level better than others.

It seems like if a person, such as the OP, wants hair whittling sharpness for a long time, they must emulate a razor.

1. Sharpen to a really acute angle.
2. Never do anything but whittle hair.

At least that has been my observation, regardless of steel.

[Ankerson]

I assume whatever steel is used in my Gillette will hold high sharpness the longest. It whittles hair for weeks, sometimes months. I've heard they use AEB-L or Sandvik in razors.

If by Gillette you mean a shaving razor, like the disposable kind, then it probably has more to do with being a super thin blade with a super thin edge. A barber's razor will whittle hair for quite a long time if that's all you ever use it for, but if you go and cut up some boxes/carpet/rope with that same razor the edge is probably going to die off pretty fast. I'd say edge geometry and edge finish have a bigger impact on this subject than the actual steel type, and anyone who has played with a Nilakka will understand that. That knife will pluck hair like nothing else because the edge is so thin, and it's S30V. You could zero grind just about any steel that's stable enough to take a zero grind and it would whittle hair forever, or at least until you started cutting more abrasive materials. But, I also think that if super fine/thin edges are your goal, that some steels will perform at that level better than others.

It seems like if a person, such as the OP, wants hair whittling sharpness for a long time, they must emulate a razor.

1. Sharpen to a really acute angle.
2. Never do anything but whittle hair.

At least that has been my observation, regardless of steel.

This is how thin razor blades are.... Edge geometry is actually around 15 DPS however.

[paladin]

What steel stays hair whittling sharp the longest?

This is gonna sound like a smart a** answer, but I'm being 100% upfront with my experience--

The steel that stays hair whittling sharpest the longest is the steel you find in your most used EDC model.

It's the steel in the blade with the grind you've found most useful for your needs nestled into a handle that appealed most to you for ergonomics and/or looks.

I tend to drill down to the practical aspects of things-- and it has it drawbacks admittedly. BUT...BUT, I'm used to the same sorts of debates about handtools...Best wrench...Snap-On or Mac? And in the garage I'd see guys from both camps reach for whatever was "handy" and 90% of the time it turned out to be a Craftsman or Husky or the like.

So my steel that usually stays sharpest longest is VG10, and s30v for the simple fact those steels are utilized in thin blade grinds of blades set in nice comfy handles of my favorite models....so I tend to touch em up on my sharpmaker the most. Best of luck on your quest. :)

[JD Spydo]

I find ZDP sharpened with one of the finer DMT stones will keep a very sharp feeling slicing edge. It cuts thin paper for a very long time.

I tend to agree with "Brother DONUT" on this one. As much as I dearly adore the endurance and reliability of my M390 Military model which would be my second choice I've yet to get any edge as wicked as the one I get when I get my original Burgundy ZDP-189 Caly Junior model freshly sharpened. I'll never forget the day I severely cut myself with the ZDP Caly Jr. it was as though I was zapped with a surgical Laser when It happened.

Now I used to put a final edge on my ZDP Caly Jr. with a blue-black super hard ARkansas Stone which gave it a scalpel like edge that would stay sharp for quite a long time. The only reason I put my ZDP Caly Jr. into semi-retirement is because my last two jobs have had very demanding cutting chores and I opted to use my C-60 Ayoob and Military models the most in the past two years.

But the edge you can get with the ZDP-189 Caly Jr is wicked beyond belief I can assure you all :cool: