Sprint steel to production steel

[LRR]

What causes the jump. If hap40 or Super blue or etc is so good, will they be used in production knives? If not, why.

[twinboysdad]

Those two are highly unlikely, since they are clad. S110V is now proto vs sprint and S30V is still available. I would think availability, price, and ease of manufacturing all play into deciding the standard steel offering

[bearfacedkiller]

I think you will only see stainless or at least semi stainless (like zdp) come to regular production. Carbon steels and tools steels are awesome but not really what the mainstream wants these days.

[Evil D]

I think you will only see stainless or at least semi stainless (like zdp) come to regular production. Carbon steels and tools steels are awesome but not really what the mainstream wants these days.

I completely agree, but also remember that M4 somehow breaks this rule and has been in standard production for quite a few years now. Overall though i think this is true and will likely remain true for the most part. It's anyone's guess why M4 is an exception.

[Cujobob]

I would imagine there are many reasons. The average person likely thinks of steels in a 'good, better, best' mindset instead of realizing that each steel has strengths and weaknesses. Carbon steels can likely cause damage to your brand reputation if people aren't aware how easy they are to tarnish. Cost would play a part, too, as not everyone wants to pay extra for a certain steel.

For what it's worth, I don't believe M4 is mainstream. It's used on higher priced products, it's also coated by many manufacturers.

[sal]

Hi LRR,

Welcome to our forum.

We've done a few carbon steel models, but as a general rule, Killer is correct, at this time, the general market prefers stainless steels. There are a few regular production carbon steel models in-the-works, so we'll see.

sal

[Surfingringo]

Ha! Sal's always good for a surprise!! ^^^

:D

[francoiski]

Those two are highly unlikely, since they are clad. S110V is now proto vs sprint and S30V is still available. I would think availability, price, and ease of manufacturing all play into deciding the standard steel offering

Hello all,

Twinboysdad, what do you mean by clad? As opposed to forged? What changes in the process of clad instead of its opposite?

Thanks!

Edit: Just understood through an older post that clad just means laminated :)

[dplafoll]

Those two are highly unlikely, since they are clad. S110V is now proto vs sprint and S30V is still available. I would think availability, price, and ease of manufacturing all play into deciding the standard steel offering

Hello all,

Twinboysdad, what do you mean by clad? As opposed to forged? What changes in the process of clad instead of its opposite?

Thanks!

The HAP-40 and Super Blue steel is clad in layers of a more stainless steel. It's also called a "laminate" blade. If you go look at pics of one of those, you can see the lamination line above the edge. It's a core of the main steel and layers of the protective steel on each side.
This is my HAP-40 Dragonfly. You can see the line very clearly. Below the line is HAP-40 and above it is SUS410.

[LRR]

Thanks for all the response!! The higher end knife market is really interesting. You'd think anyone willing to pay over $100 for a pocket knife would understand the steels. Anyway, no one offers the opportunities to try steel like spyderco!! Thanks!

[Donut]

I think you will only see stainless or at least semi stainless (like zdp) come to regular production. Carbon steels and tools steels are awesome but not really what the mainstream wants these days.

I completely agree, but also remember that M4 somehow breaks this rule and has been in standard production for quite a few years now. Overall though i think this is true and will likely remain true for the most part. It's anyone's guess why M4 is an exception.

I thought I heard that Gayle Bradley specifically asked for his models to be made with M4.

[Cujobob]

Thanks for all the response!! The higher end knife market is really interesting. You'd think anyone willing to pay over $100 for a pocket knife would understand the steels. Anyway, no one offers the opportunities to try steel like spyderco!! Thanks!

Most knife people seem fairly ignorant regarding blade steel, I think it's also due to a lack of good information that's easy to follow being readily available. Most of what you'll see is 'this steel will hold an edge longer than X' ..without mention of how edge stability, maintenance, or toughness comes into play.

[tvenuto]

Thanks for all the response!! The higher end knife market is really interesting. You'd think anyone willing to pay over $100 for a pocket knife would understand the steels. Anyway, no one offers the opportunities to try steel like spyderco!! Thanks!

Most knife people seem fairly ignorant regarding blade steel, I think it's also due to a lack of good information that's easy to follow being readily available. Most of what you'll see is 'this steel will hold an edge longer than X' ..without mention of how edge stability, maintenance, or toughness comes into play.

Or geometry...or material cut...or cutting method...etc, which aren't even properties of the steel. Lots of "variables" (more accurate: sources of error!) as you mention.

The crux is, like cars, not much knowledge of the inner workings is necessary in practical use. That is, most people who drive couldn't tell you much about the guts of the engine, although that is in large part what makes the car go. So, most car makers choose relatively non-extreme engine designs with the goal of decent performance without sacrificing maintenance. Anything designed for large-scale consumption will follow this paradigm. Luckily, Spyderco indulges the aficionados with specialty runs that have features more extreme than the average joe will appreciate.

[Evil D]

I think you will only see stainless or at least semi stainless (like zdp) come to regular production. Carbon steels and tools steels are awesome but not really what the mainstream wants these days.

I completely agree, but also remember that M4 somehow breaks this rule and has been in standard production for quite a few years now. Overall though i think this is true and will likely remain true for the most part. It's anyone's guess why M4 is an exception.

I thought I heard that Gayle Bradley specifically asked for his models to be made with M4.

Given his background in blade sport that's probably a good possibility.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Hi LRR,

Welcome to our forum.

We've done a few carbon steel models, but as a general rule, Killer is correct, at this time, the general market prefers stainless steels. There are a few regular production carbon steel models in-the-works, so we'll see.

sal

Sal,if I may ask, what is the closest steel that is knife blade-worthy, in all of your years of experience, and from what you see in the work of other metallurgists, that combines the springy toughness of carbon spring steel with the rust resistance of stainless steel? Which blade steel in your view of things comes closest to providing the best of both worlds? Say we ignore price and look purely at the properties of the metal.

[sal]

Blade steel is a deep, wide subject that is challenging. When I first began to study forging, it was very difficult and very slow for me to abosrb all of the variables and their effect. That was in the early 80's. I don't think it can be expected that one can learn very much in a short period of time, even with immersion.

This forum is a good source because folks here are from kinder-garden to Phd and they don't mind sharing or learning. Less ego, I guess.

When designers want a particular steel, we try to meet their request. Eg: Gayle with M4 or Farid with 10V. I forged 52100, which I like, so we have that simple, but effective steel in our arsenal.

Steels like HAP40 were well received so you will probably see more of it, but we did make 7200 pcs with the steel. The same with Super Blue.

sal

[sal]

Hi LRR,

Welcome to our forum.

We've done a few carbon steel models, but as a general rule, Killer is correct, at this time, the general market prefers stainless steels. There are a few regular production carbon steel models in-the-works, so we'll see.

sal

Sal,if I may ask, what is the closest steel that is knife blade-worthy, in all of your years of experience, and from what you see in the work of other metallurgists, that combines the springy toughness of carbon spring steel with the rust resistance of stainless steel? Which blade steel in your view of things comes closest to providing the best of both worlds? Say we ignore price and look purely at the properties of the metal.

Hi SEF,

It's just my opinion, but I would say S30V, VG-10, N690Co, and that's why we use them. BD 1 is in there as well, though a notch down in edge holding. Steels that excell in oe area, usually are less effective in others.

Edge holding, toughness, corrosion resistance, ease of sharpening and price.

sal

[PaleMoon]

Since this seems a good place to ask... is there any reason we don't really see any AEB-L in the Spyderco lineup? I read it's a favorite with many custom makers, is very affordable and pretty much the stainless equivalent of 52100. I myself use it in kitchen knives and have been very impressed with it thus far.

Is it too close to another steel already in use? Lack of market interest? It seems like a very underrated steel, akin to 440C, which has acquired a reputation for being "inferior" following the rise of high alloy, high wear steels

[sal]

Hi PaleMoon,

Welcome to our forum.

AEBL is essentially a razor blade steel. Probably the reason Spyderco hasn't used it is because of the lower carbon content. AEBL has .67% carbon. We generally don't use blade steels with less than .9. In China we use a .8 and sometimes lower depending on the knife.

You might begin a thread for discussion?

sal

[bearfacedkiller]

Hi LRR,

Welcome to our forum.

We've done a few carbon steel models, but as a general rule, Killer is correct, at this time, the general market prefers stainless steels. There are a few regular production carbon steel models in-the-works, so we'll see.

sal

I started a thread requesting some more carbon steel Spydies over two years ago. It didn't seem warmly received at the time but here we are two years later with a 52100 Military and apparently a few more carbon steel knives on the horizon. Sal, you are the man. I am not taking credit for this but am quite grateful that this has come to fruition and am eager to find out what other models you have in the works. As always Sal, you are the man. Thanks....

The thread ended up being quite informative.

//forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?t=70828