Spyderco Forums

Bill1170 wrote:There is something liberating at times with having fewer options of how to do a thing. With the Delica having no choil, I don't need to decide how I'm going to grasp it in forward grip. I hold onto the FRN handle, index finger nestled behind the guard, and this works fine every time.

Having options is great, and American culture promotes this ideal as preferable, but with more choices comes increased cognitive load. Simplicity has its own charm.

+1
I dont understand this choil hype.I bought a Blue D4 which sits in its box and will never see any cutting just to have a back up for my beloved gray D4,because i feared a mutilated D5 with a choil.A future Delica 5 should get rid of the ricaso and go with the cutting edge all the way to the handel.And if you want a Delica with a choil so badly,buy a Meadowlark.

The Deacon wrote:Sal has said that, while the 50/50 choil is popular with the "afi" users who frequent these forums, the general knife buying public does not find them desirable and those buyers represent the primary target market for the Delica and Endura.

Still, they do seem to represent the "worst of both worlds". Either an "all edge" blade that the average buyer likes, or a 50/50 choil that we like, would be preferable to the wasted real estate of the Delica's useless exposed tang. Then again who am I to argue with success, and the Delica is probably still one of Spyderco's best sellers.

This is one of those rare occasions where we disagree Paul. I definitely would not call the exposed tang useless One handed closing is every bit as important to me as one handed opening. It is that exposed tang that allows me to simply depress the lock and safely drop the blade down on my finger and then close. I close my Pacific Salt this way daily when I'm on the ocean in a small boat and my other hand is gill deep into a fish. It is a very safe and efficient closing method and I am happy to make the trade. I get way more real world benefit out of being able to close my knife that way than I would out of an extra 1/4" of edge.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a back-lock knife needs some tang for a kick that holds the edge away from the rocker bar and spring. A delica with all edge and no tang wouldn't be possible.

Surfingringo wrote:This is one of those rare occasions where we disagree Paul. I definitely would not call the exposed tang useless One handed closing is every bit as important to me as one handed opening. It is that exposed tang that allows me to simply depress the lock and safely drop the blade down on my finger and then close. I close my Pacific Salt this way daily when I'm on the ocean in a small boat and my other hand is gill deep into a fish. It is a very safe and efficient closing method and I am happy to make the trade. I get way more real world benefit out of being able to close my knife that way than I would out of an extra 1/4" of edge.

Ok Lance, I'm not sure I'd ever feel comfortable closing my Pacific that way. To be honest, I'm not totally comfortable doing that with a knife that has a 50/50 choil. However, I'll concede that the exposed tang is not entirely useless since you are getting some benefit from it. My only question to you would be, wouldn't a 50/50 choil retain the ability to close the knife that way, and add the ability to choke up (or at least to choke up more comfortably and safely) than the current setup?

Holzfaeller wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but a back-lock knife needs some tang for a kick that holds the edge away from the rocker bar and spring. A delica with all edge and no tang wouldn't be possible.

Yes. It's been popular to say things like "I wish X knife had Y feature of Z knife" even though X and Z knives have different locks and thus different design requirements. Several people have said that they wish the Schempp Bowie was a back lock, but that would change the form factor significantly. The GB is a liner lock, and so doesn't have the same design requirements as a back lock.

Surfingringo wrote:I definitely would not call the exposed tang useless One handed closing is every bit as important to me as one handed opening. It is that exposed tang that allows me to simply depress the lock and safely drop the blade down on my finger and then close. I close my Pacific Salt this way daily when I'm on the ocean in a small boat and my other hand is gill deep into a fish. It is a very safe and efficient closing method and I am happy to make the trade. I get way more real world benefit out of being able to close my knife that way than I would out of an extra 1/4" of edge.

I hadn't thought of this, but this is exactly how I close my Delicas most of the time.

The Deacon wrote: My only question to you would be, wouldn't a 50/50 choil retain the ability to close the knife that way, and add the ability to choke up (or at least to choke up more comfortably and safely) than the current setup?

It would, but that's not the only issue. The choil would invariably push back the grip behind the choil, and you wouldn't be able to get a full grip while using it. I don't mind a choil some of the time, but I like having knives that allow all of my fingers to stay together and still have a full grip on the knife, like the delica, Yo2 etc. For me, the delica is the smallest knife where this is possible, and adding the choil would change that (like the native).

Fingers together + full grip:


Fingers not together + full grip:


Fingers together + no full grip:

tvenuto wrote:

The Deacon wrote: My only question to you would be, wouldn't a 50/50 choil retain the ability to close the knife that way, and add the ability to choke up (or at least to choke up more comfortably and safely) than the current setup?

It would, but that's not the only issue. The choil would invariably push back the grip behind the choil, and you wouldn't be able to get a full grip while using it. I don't mind a choil some of the time, but I like having knives that allow all of my fingers to stay together and still have a full grip on the knife, like the delica, Yo2 etc. For me, the delica is the smallest knife where this is possible, and adding the choil would change that (like the native).

First off, your hands must be quite a bit larger than mine, as I can get a full 4 finger grip behind the choil of a Native. Heck, I can get one with a Chaparral.
More importantly, you also seem to have missed that my question to Lance was specifically about his use of the Pacific Salt. I realize that was somewhat "off topic", considering the title of this thread, but are you seriously suggesting that you would no longer be able to comfortably fit 4 fingers behind the 50/50 choil of a Pacific Salt if it had one?

Compare the photos provided by tvenuto of his grip on the Delica with his grip on the Native where he isn't using the choil. The guard on the Native handle is further back from the edge than that on the Delica. If one prefers a full grip on the plastic handle, the Delica geometry places that grip closer to the edge than the Native geometry. For those that prefer a choil grip, the Native allows the index finger to be closer to the edge than the Delica does.

So one might begin with a preference for a certain style of gripping one's knife, then make their model choice informed by that preference. Of course, the Tenacious family allow an even closer grip to the edge, but at the cost of safe closing.

The Deacon wrote:More importantly, you also seem to have missed that my question to Lance was specifically about his use of the Pacific Salt. I realize that was somewhat "off topic", considering the title of this thread, but are you seriously suggesting that you would no longer be able to comfortably fit 4 fingers behind the 50/50 choil of a Pacific Salt if it had one?

No, I missed that you were asking about the Endura-sized Pac Salt specifically. I would certainly still have room for the 4 finger grip on that model with a choil. I thought we were still talking about the Delica and similar salt models (which is the Salt 1 I guess).

FWIW Paul, I am a big fan of a 50/50 choil and were I designing a new salt knife from scratch I would probably include that feature. That said, I find the Pacific salt (and the endura and delica) to be very complete designs and appreciate them as they are.

Regarding your question about closing a knife with a finger choil the way I described. Yes, it is possible but it ends up putting the edge closer to the finger because you have to hold the knife behind the choil to drop the blade. The Caly series for example is one of the more sketchy designs to close in this fashion. With the Pacific salt, as long as your forefinger is anywhere on the top 25% of the handle its pretty much impossible to make contact with the edge. It really is a very safe way to close one handed IMHO.

https://youtu.be/aa2fItisnfs

A choil with jumping would provide even more options for users of the Delica (I have a brown one) so I see that as a good thing. As to "taking away from the looks" of the Delica, one could as easily say that a choil would "add to" the looks. Knives are, after all, made to be used for knife appropriate tasks and having more options for those tasks suits me fine.

And, I like the looks of choils. My Dragonfly 2 is probably my favorite all-around knife, followed closely by it's big cousin, my PM 2.

Guess which ones have choils?

I actually prefer to NOT have a choil whatsoever, but that is 100% dependent on the design of the knife. The handle shape needs to allow the index finger to be very close to the edge but still safe and secure. Some of the best designs made by Spyderco for this are the value folders, i.e. Persistence/Resilience/Tenacious/Ambitious. The edge extends all the way to the handle and the grip extends all the way to the edge. The handle creates a strong enough "guard" that your finger won't slip into the edge, and there's no blade being wasted on a choil. So, when you have a 3 inch blade, you get a 3 inch edge. I really wish more knives were designed this way.

tvenuto wrote:

The Deacon wrote:
Fingers together + full grip:

This picture is of a Delica?

If it is what I am saying and assuming it can be done with a backlock. Just take the space right in front of you index finger and the unsharpened base of the blade and make it into a 50/50 choil.

I am not saying the Delica needs a choil so much as it is something that could be added with no drawback or change to the regular full handle grip.

Haha

Listen to what a dedicated hunter non-Spydie guy told me.Sometimes these guys are not biased and I pay atention to them.After playing with a few of my folders I asked him his opinion and he said that the best design would be a virtual spydie with a Manix2 handle,edge all the way to the handle and a compression lock.What about that ! :cool:

I carry either a Manix 2 or PM 2 every day. I don't mind the choils since I can get a full grip without using them, but I would prefer more sharp edge instead. I've been awaiting the Lil Temp 2 for this reason. You can't please everybody, but Spyderco comes close by offering choices for different customers.

I love the choil on my Dragonfly's & Caly 3 !!!

And no problem when closing one hand ! I feel more confident with the choil, because if I leave my finger a bit behind it (the choil) and I can make the move so the blade go down, and my finger stop the blade on the choil/non cutting part of the blade. The blade at this time is half open or half closed :D then with my thumb and the :spyder: hole finish the move to close it.

I didn't say I don't like my Delica but sometimes I do not understand why the Caly is not more popular or as popular as the Delica.
The Caly feel so good in the hand ! What could it be with FRN handles ... :rolleyes: :cool:

I have to be honest, I don't get the love of choils on knives. I find that having them usually means I'm further back from the blade than I prefer. The Native can't be gripped at all without using the choil. For those who prefer them, please understand that for many of us, they ruin the ergos of the knife in 95% of situations.

As for the Delica, my only gripe is with the exposed blade tang when closed. It bothers me.

Cujobob wrote:The Native can't be gripped at all without using the choil. For those who prefer them, please understand that for many of us, they ruin the ergos of the knife in 95% of situations.

Disagree: yes it can, and, ergonomics is not a one size (type or form factor) fits all. Which 95 of 100 situations are you referencing?

Choils offer options which apply in s variety of situations. If a knife is a limited use tools, such as a fillet knife or a skinner, then the variety of use doesn't apply so much and will more closely constrain the design requirements.

I think for a good EDC knife, having choices that promote a variety of functions is a good design principle and choils often support that.