NYC Pen Knife

[SpydieJay]

Although in NYC one can legally carry a manual or assisted locking folder up to but not including 4" (as long as it's not visible in public, including the clip since it is considered 'menacing'), the powers that be have deemed that ANY locking folder that can in any way be opened with one hand, whether by nudging an assist, holding the axis on a BM and flicking, or holding the hole on a Spyderco (Spydiedropped), is illegal. These are now considered 'gravity knives' because they also lock. Of course we all know that they are NOT true gravity knives (e.g. German paratrooper knife, etc.). Since I simply want to carry a blade close to the maximum permitted and don't need a lock, why not simply make a beefed up UK Pen Knife (since profiles can be similar, like the Caly 3.5 is to the Caly 3 which is very close to the PK profile). I suggest a 3.75" leaf blade NYC Pen knife, with a 50% stronger slip-it mechanism (of course a stop strong enough to brake the blade when popping it closed). The combination of extra stiffness and size, should fit the bill for almost everything with the powers that be scratching their heads. Oh, and of course a G10 version or CF version (initially) for Spydie-snobs like me. Anyone, maybe Sal, have any thoughts about it? Or has someone already gone there on the forum?

[sal]

Hi Jay,

Laws in general throughout the world are moving in the direction of; no person having ability to hurt any other person, on the theory that no one will be hurt. That's why most cultures that were overly oppressed began to use farm implements an defensive tools. (Might be easier to just outlaw crime. :eek: )

We're always developing knives to meet the needs of our customers, a high quality, sharp, safe cutting tool that also meets the local laws regarding knives. (eg: UK, Denmark, Australia, Germany, etc).

With regards to New York City, You might consider the Mike Read designed Spyderco "PITS" which was designed for heavier use and still meet UK law. It's only 3" in blade length, but quite stout. A larger version might be what you are looking for?

Let's see where this thread goes?

sal

[osprey]

As someone who splits time between a knife friendly state and NYC, I would also be interested in a knife that could travel with me. However, for my uses I prefer a spyderedged hawkbill or wharnie. Any chance of a serrated wharnciffe or hawkbill option joining the UKPK/Urban family?

[CyberKlown28]

(Might be easier to just outlaw crime. :eek: )

Sal Glesser 2016

[Doc Dan]

I really like the idea of the PITS. I will probably never own one due to the cost. It looks to be a great non locking design.

[mikeh99]

The PITS sounds like a good match to me. Even having a 3" blade over the law max requirement of under 4" would seem to make it more accepted by the authorities without taking out a tape measure. Stout knife. It is the closest thing to a locking knife I've seen.

[Donut]

Actually, if you read the law, I don't think any folding knives that lock open are legal in NYC.

The poor method that was used to write that law is open to many interpretations, lawyers are winning cases where some simple definitions would save people who don't have time to be constantly updated on the law... from going to jail.

As far as knives in NYC are concerned, I would try to be safer than sorry.

[SpydieJay]

Thanks for the reply, Sal. Much appreciated. To Sal, Doc Dan, and Mikeh99, great idea of a larger PITS knife. Only read the initial Bytes and considered it due to the stated non-lock strength, but I have three Pen Knives already and I don't collect Slip-Its, I use them. I collect ALOT of Clip-Its. What about a 3 3/4 or 3. 5/8" PITS then? BTW, Donut, you have been misinformed about knives in NYC, and I have done my knife law research, statute by statute. Under 4" folders (and fixed blades) that lock ARE legal, but if you show it off in public in any way, it's menacing. If you are caught with it and have a rap sheet or are doing something questionable, or look particularly unsavory, then it's up to the officer's discretion.

[brick]

The primary issue with the gravity knife statute is the vagueness with regards to how it isn't allowed to open. The reference to "centrifugal force" means that all an officer has to do is grab the blade (partially opening it first if necessary) and flail it around until it opens. It doesn't matter whether or not a knife's owner has ever actually done that. Is that sensible? No. Was that the intent of the law? No. Can it land someone in jail anyway? You betcha. Until someone invents a locking knife that is immune to any form of wrist flicking Brian is correct. Case law (however flawed) says that any folding knife that locks open is illegal in NYC (and potentially anywhere else in NY if law enforcement chooses to use the same argument).

Personally I hope the intent bill goes through this year. The climate seems right for it but the bill has to get out of committee first.

-Tim

[bearfacedkiller]

Hold the phone! Are we now petitioning for a 3.5 or 3.75 inch PITS?

Ummm, yes please! I'll take a 3.5 incher. :D

[Joris Mo]

I think a 3,5 inch PITS would be great too, would actually prefer a 3,5 inch locking version..
Love Spydies but do seem to prefer blades without thumbramp so I love the PITS in hand but would really like a locking/slightly bigger version.

[Donut]

Thanks for the reply, Sal. Much appreciated. To Sal, Doc Dan, and Mikeh99, great idea of a larger PITS knife. Only read the initial Bytes and considered it due to the stated non-lock strength, but I have three Pen Knives already and I don't collect Slip-Its, I use them. I collect ALOT of Clip-Its. What about a 3 3/4 or 3. 5/8" PITS then? BTW, Donut, you have been misinformed about knives in NYC, and I have done my knife law research, statute by statute. Under 4" folders (and fixed blades) that lock ARE legal, but if you show it off in public in any way, it's menacing. If you are caught with it and have a rap sheet or are doing something questionable, or look particularly unsavory, then it's up to the officer's discretion.

I've read a number of news articles about people going to jail... that say the opposite of what you're reading.

I definitely agree about what it says, but judges and lawyers seem to disagree.

[MichaelScott]

As long as we are on this topic, I live in Colorado. I carry at least one knife. I would love a Colorado legal Lil' Matriarch. Here the legal maximum for a concealed knife blade is maximum 3.5". The Lil, Matriarch is slightly longer. Just slightly. Could we have a Colorado version? Please... I promise I won't take it to New York.

[bearfacedkiller]

As long as we are on this topic, I live in Colorado. I carry at least one knife. I would love a Colorado legal Lil' Matriarch. Here the legal maximum for a concealed knife blade is maximum 3.5". The Lil, Matriarch is slightly longer. Just slightly. Could we have a Colorado version? Please... I promise I won't take it to New York.

The Lil Matriarch is only 3 inches.

[Doc Dan]

The real solution, of course is don't go to NYC! Vote with your money.

Seriously, when something like this is so vague and left up to a policeman to make a decision, who may be having a bad day, find that you remind him of someone he doesn't like, is one of those who cannot comprehend fully what he reads, is trying to pad his arrest record so he can be promoted, or a thousand other such things, is simply a bad idea. Over here, knives are not illegal. However, if a cop finds you have one on your person you will be arrested without cause, taken to jail, from which you may or may not emerge, with or without a trial, which will be unfair in any case. Recently, a Japanese tourist was arrested for having a pen knife (not a crime) and put in prison, where he "committed suicide" the first day (an all too common occurrence).

[TheRaven]

Actually, if you read the law, I don't think any folding knives that lock open are legal in NYC.

The poor method that was used to write that law is open to many interpretations...

I don't think it was a "poor method" on their part. I'm pretty sure they wrote it that way on purpose. Then they could interpret it however they want to use against you.

[PolarisDesu]

I think that it is sad to live in times where this kind of law applies... The inability that people have to understand that a weapon is a weapon when a person is willing to use something as so. For example, Kubotans in some places are also considered illegals, which I just can't understand! There is no difference between them and a pen. But I guess that it is rather easy to blame something than someone, since blaming someone would require a prior understanding of the person in question.

The bad thing about this, is how not only limits your EDC carry options, but as mentioned before, you become susceptible to an officer's discretion in order to determine whether or not you represent a menace for the public (An no-one really wants to be in this situation).

The good thing about this is that Spyderco provides a catalog of "legal" knives, like this one, the UK Pen Knife which I happen to carry on daily basis,





It seems that by law, you are allowed to carry longer blades in the US, that is cool. Here in Germany, the maximum length is lesser than 8cm (3,1 inches). Let's say, a Delica.

As a recommendation, for your own well-being. Carry your stuff in a not visible way. And good luck if an officer pull you out... There is a chance that the officer doesn't know about knives in general, so, this problem you can be translated into a solution, for example, talking to him that the knife is made of this steel, bla bla bla. So he knows that you are not just a random guy who happens to have a knife. I carry other things with me, for example a small LED lantern and a small first aids kit, they all carry a purpose since they all are tools, but obviously would help me to clear out some doubts if I got pulled by the Police.

PS: Every knife has a lock, even a Victorinox (legal) have a weak spring lock. The thing is all about being able to keep the blade in position after it is deployed (Without any automatic mechanism). That is why, all "legal" knives actually have a small ball lock or weak back lock. The thing is that it possess like half pound of force so it can be opened/closed. But this legal issues goes to the absurd sometimes, in the UK and other European countries, a knife which can be opened with one hand, should be considered Illegal, but this is a joke, with a small amount of practice, anyone can open almost any knife with one hand and therefore, a funny amount of videos of legally knives being open with one hand can be found in Youtube.

Regards.

[yablanowitz]

Welcome to the forum. Not every knife has a lock, or even a spring to hold it open. Search for "friction folder". Of course, they can usually be opened with one hand, which may make them illegal where you are. A knife which can be closed by simple pressure on the blade without releasing a mechanism does not have a lock, at least by any sane definition of the term.

[sal]

Hi PolarisDesu,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[Donut]

According to what I've read about cases in NYC, I think you are much safer avoiding anything that folds. A fixed blade with <4" blade (like the ark) leaves no chance for bad interpretation of the law.

When it comes out, the Ronin 2 would also be good.

I wonder if Spyderco has ever considered a LBK fixed blade. (Outside of the Spot.)