Broken FRN

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Cliff Stamp
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Broken FRN

Postby Cliff Stamp » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:18 pm

I think this is one of the first times I have seen this type of failure :

Image

It happened during wood carving. This isn't my knife, the details have already been sent to Spyderco.

There are some concerns about the extensive skeletonizing :

Image

However I have tried to break a few of those grips (not that model) and I even watched my brother crack a blade off and the handle was fine. I would suspect a fault in the FRN, but I would like to see the way the blade/lock loads the inside of that material in detail.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby SpyderNut » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:58 pm

Cliff,

I believe the Manix Lightweight models feature FRCP vs. FRN handles. Nevertheless, this is good to know. Please let us know what you find out on what went wrong.

Edit: I stand corrected. :o Looks like the 110V Manix LW does in fact feature a FRN handle. Mea culpa.

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Ankerson
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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Ankerson » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:30 pm

Something really strange about that one...... Really shows up looking at it on a 32" Monitor.

Here is mine..

Image
Last edited by Ankerson on Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby JD Spydo » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:33 pm

I'm really surprised to see that >> GOD knows I've had dozens of Spyderco models with FRN handles and still own quite a few and I've put two models in particular through some of the most horrid working conditions and I've truly abused them as well. But I've never broke or chipped or had an FRN handle fail me in any way.

Now granted I do like G-10 better than I do FRN handles because they just seem to have a much more confident grip factor. But if there is a model or design of Spyder that I like I can assure you the FRN handle won't dissuade me from buying it.

This makes me wonder if this wasn't some type of quality control failure or just flat out a factory defect? Let us know if you discover what made this happen Cliff because I'm truly surprised to see this and I'm also very curious as to what made this happen.

OH by the way Cliff I see you just passed the 3000 post mark :spyder: And all of them I can remember are good quality posts too.
Last edited by JD Spydo on Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Ankerson » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:35 pm

JD Spydo wrote:I'm really surprised to see that >> GOD knows I've had dozens of Spyderco models with FRN handles and still own quite a few and I've put two models in particular through some of the most horrid working conditions and I've truly abused them as well. But I've never broke or chipped or had an FRN handle fail me in any way.

Now granted I do like G-10 better than I do FRN handles because they just seem to have a much more confident grip factor. But if there is a model or design of Spyder that I like I can assure you the FRN handle won't dissuade me from buying it.

This makes me wonder if this wasn't some type of quality control failure or just flat out a factory defect? Let us know if you discover what made this happen Cliff because I'm truly surprised to see this and I'm also very curious as to what made this happen.

Something very odd with that... Almost looks like it was beaten to me.

Something Spyderco would have to look at though.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Cliff Stamp » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:39 pm

Ankerson wrote:
Something very odd with that... Almost looks like it was beaten to me.
Jim, I explained as to how it broke, claiming conspiracies and calling people a liar are strictly against the rules of the Spyderco form. It was damaged during carving wood, the handle snapped.

All materials which are made have defects, it doesn't matter the QC which is used, there are always limits on impurities and segregation which from time to time will cause dramatic failure even in perfectly functional design.

--

Just to clarify, I thought I made it clear in my first post - this isn't my knife. The details on it have already been sent to Spyderco.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby paladin » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:40 pm

there appears to be some previous damage that topmost rivet/fastener area just out of frame...

maybe we could get pics that enhance that area from the original owner Cliff, perhaps

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Ankerson » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:42 pm

paladin wrote:there appears to be some previous damage that topmost rivet/fastener just out of frame...

maybe we could get pics that enhance that area, perhaps

Yeah that's what I was looking at, it really shows up on my big screen.

That and the scars around the pivot.

Odd....

That photo is 12" wide on my screen without blowing it up.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby paladin » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:47 pm

Cliff, could there be a chance the previous owner is not telling the truth...or maybe not the WHOLE TRUTH

Perhaps, you were an eyewitness at the moment the damage happened...

Otherwise the account of the way the damage was incurred is just circumstantial...

I don't think Jim insinuated you were lying, at least I didn't take it that way...

But since you brought it up, could it be possible you (Cliff) were not told the truth about how the handle failed?

Of course that can be factored out of the equation if you were an eyewitness or if you vouch for the veracity of the account on behalf of the claimant...

Your word is good enough for everyone here :)
Last edited by paladin on Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Ankerson » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:52 pm

paladin wrote:Cliff, could there be a chance the previous owner is not telling the truth...or maybe not the WHOLE TRUTH

Perhaps, you were an eyewitness at the moment the damage happened...

Otherwise the account of the way the damage was incurred is just circumstantial...

I don't think Jim insinuated anyone was lying, at least I didn't take it that way...

But when detective work is involved, deception is a POSSIBLE suspect...

Of course that can be factored out of the equation if you were an eyewitness or if you vouch for the veracity of the account on behalf of the claimant...

Your word is good enough for everyone here :)
I blew up the photo, something odd, discoloration in the crack area, darker than the surrounding material, very strange.

And no I doubt Cliff broke the knife on purpose, I don't think Cliff would do that.

I think Cliff got a damaged knife.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby paladin » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:00 pm

It seems, at first blush, from the pic evidence the fracture roughly follows the arc of the rearmost blade radius.

Predictably enough, it likewise appears the FRN failed "in-between" the bi-directional "volcanoes" where the stock was thinnest, with the exception of the last volcano that suffered catastrophic failure midline... :eek:

The torque may have been centered around the pivot area.

Ordinarily, it should take A LOT of lateral stress & leverage to snap there, I would think. :confused:

Of course, if the FRN was faulty that's another story... :eek:

And I do see the discoloration along the "fault line" now that you spotted it Jim...good eye, brother! :spyder:

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Ankerson » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:04 pm

paladin wrote:It seems, at first blush, from the pic evidence the fracture roughly follows the arc of the rearmost blade radius.

Predictably enough, it likewise appears the FRN failed "in-between" the bi-directional "volcanoes" where the stock was thinnest, with the exception of the last volcano that suffered catastrophic failure midline... :eek:

The torque may have been centered around the pivot area.

Ordinarily, it should take A LOT of lateral stress & leverage to snap there, I would think. :confused:

Of course, if the FRN was faulty that's another story... :eek:

And I do see the discoloration along the "fault line" now that you spotted it Jim...good eye, brother! :spyder:
Yeah something is definitely odd, almost like it was burnt or heated. :confused:

Who knows. :confused:

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Cliff Stamp » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:18 pm

paladin wrote:Cliff, could there be a chance the previous owner is not telling the truth...or maybe not the WHOLE TRUTH
This is always possible, however is this how you want the forum to be ran? Any time someone posts a problem they have with a product they are accused of lying and misrepresenting what they did? Can you imagine, even for a minute that is how Sal wants to see dialog on the forum? That kind of nonsense is why people can't have critical discussion of many products on other forums and they end up making those posts elsewhere. I know the guy, he is a friend of mine. The chance of him making up that story and then letting me know on the off chance I would post it here because of some odd conspiracy he has against Spyderco is beyond insensible. It is like seeing a knife chip and then concluding that Aliens fired their Lazors at it at night when you were sleeping and that is why the steel is behaving oddly.

I have broken FRN handles, I have broken G10 and solid Micarta grips, I have seen lots of natural handles fail on almost trivial impacts (because I have used LOTS of them, as in hundreds). All of these materials, while generally very durable, can at times fail at very low points because all materials have defects. If you put enough products out there then you will see defects. If you use enough of them they you will see defects. Now as the maker/manufacturer the response to this could be to :

a) call the customer a liar, claim the product could never have failed as it did, and argue there is some conspiracy against you and they are making it all up (this by the way if you were silly enough to do it opens you up to defamation claims)

b) realize the reality of materials failure, swear a little at your bad luck, ask to see the knife, have a conversation maybe with the supplier about existing QC practices and if there is a way to upgrade

Which one do you think Sal will do when he sees this request (minus the swearing)- which one has he repeatedly asked the forum members to do?

Again, all materials fail, it doesn't matter who makes them. I have had handle failures on very expensive custom knives, with natural materials is even more common. You can take steps, you a very tough wood, get it from someone who knows how to season it, use burl, treat it properly - you can do all of that and see they crack. I had a handle failure on a custom fixed blade awhile ago, lost a piece of a really nice piece of stabilized iron wood. It happens. I let the maker know, he offered to replace it. I noted I was just letting him know for his statistics. I just used a high epoxy filler to set it. It looks horrible, but it works perfectly fine.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Ankerson » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:26 pm

I would think Spyderco would want to see the knife to see what went on to cause it to crack.

Other than that it's guesswork at this point.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby paladin » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:41 pm

Point made & taken...

But discourse is a 2 way street...

I think it is just as valid for me to ask is there A POSSIBILITY that there may be duplicity involved as there is for you to post a pic of a catastrophic failure of a knife handle with the only explanation that it's your "friends" and he was "carving wood."

It has a certain degree of "shock value" you may not want to recognize when you leave so much up to the imagination. Especially considering there is additional possible damage out of frame of the photo and not visible in the other shots.

You enjoy illustrations, so maybe you'll appreciate this one of mine:

suppose this were a Ford enthusiasts' forum and you posted a pic of a Fusion with severe damage to the front end with the accompanying commentary:

"This is my friend's Fusion, the front wheel came off while he was cornering. The info has been sent to Ford."

Would it be reasonable to ask "Was he speeding?" "Did he run off the shoulder?" If it just came off under ordinary driving circumstances "Could it be you weren't told the entire story?" By stating it as "it came off as he was cornering" makes it sound like it failed for no apparent reason and seems to have a that afore-mentioned level of "shock value--" maybe unintentionally.

I don't think it is beyond the pale, as enthusiasts, to want more "info" if there is any "info" to be had...

Since not much was proffered up by you, I don't think it is unreasonable to think MOST ANY knife would not suffer that kind of catastrophic failure from "normal" pedestrian wood carving.

That is, if it were "normal" wood carving...could your friend have used a wrench or a mallet whilst carving the wood, do you know?

This is a forum, all POSSIBILITIES can & SHOULD be entertained unless ENOUGH info is provided to eliminate such a discourse.

So, to answer your original question as to how I WANT the forum to be ran:

I want the forum to be open enough to be able to ask if there is a POSSIBILITY that you could have been a victim of duplicity. You must admit your initial post was kurt and had no descriptive info such as "I saw this happen and he was just carving a chain link out of some basswood and it the handle broke in half!" or my friend told me he "got the knot caught in an ironwood burl and when he applied torque with a crescent wrench & 3 ft. cheater pipe the handle snapped."

If all I knew was it broke "when he was carving wood"-- I personally would not have posted such a sensational pic...but that's just me. :)
Last edited by paladin on Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Ankerson » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:47 pm

I don't think people should get too whacked out of shape over it until Spyderco gets to see it.

That's just my take on it for what that is worth.

Just seems odd to me as I know FRN is hard to break with as much as it flexes, I know because I have done it and more than a few times, same with G10.

Only had one handle break before the blade personally and that took me standing on the knife between 2 landscape timbers and bouncing on it until it cracked and I weigh like 195 LBS.

Most folders I can put in my vise and snap the blades without much of an issue, something I have found over the years.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Surfingringo » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:02 pm

Paladin makes some very fair points. The frn might have failed during normal woodcarving but that is so far outside our common and shared experience with frn that it would be unnatural to NOT look for some other logical explanation...most of which would include no deception or dishonesty so why don't we all relax. There are no stones being thrown or battle lines being drawn.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Ankerson » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:06 pm

Surfingringo wrote:Paladin makes some very fair points. The frn might have failed during normal woodcarving but that is so far outside our common and shared experience with frn that it would be unnatural to NOT look for some other logical explanation...most of which would include no deception or dishonesty so why don't we all relax. There are no stones being thrown or battle lines being drawn.

Yeah really.

My 1st impression was what the heck for example. :eek:

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Cliff Stamp » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:08 pm

paladin wrote:

I think it is just as valid for me to ask is there A POSSIBILITY that there may be duplicity involved ...
How about this, when people post up reviews we accuse them of distorting the facts and imply they are intentionally posting false information. It is of course a possibility for example that they are lying to promote Spyderco because they have a conspiracy/agenda or maybe Spyderco even is paying them - these are all possibilities. Don't you think that would make the forum utterly ridiculous in a short period of time if that was how this forum responded to such threads? Or should that only be done to the critical/negative ones?
Since not much was proffered up by you, I don't think it is unreasonable to think MOST ANY knife would not suffer that kind of catastrophic failure from "normal" pedestrian wood carving.
Again, it depends on the material and the individual.

It has been awhile since I over loaded that material so I took a Byrd. I locked the blade so it could not move and then using wrist force alone I sheared it apart and forced the lock bar completely out of position. I could have easily torn the handle material apart as the metal would have went through the plastic. However, before anyone jumps to the position that the handles are weak, I knew how to apply a very strong rotational load through my hand. I was not just pressing down on the handle, I was forcing it to attempt to rotate around the pivot pin while it was locked by pressing down with my thumb/index finger and pulling up with my pinky and then reversing it.

What would I conclude from that - well it isn't unreasonable that someone could shear that material if they had a decently strong wrist and they did a lot of heavy cutting. If you cut into wood and the blade gets stuck, and you do that kind of very strong drive you can force the blade through. Based on the way the material deformed and the material in the above actually cracked. It would seem likely to me it was some kind of material defect. But the only way to know that is to over load a bunch of them and see if they all crack in that area (which would point to a design stress focal point) or would they just crack in random locations.

Again I have seen all kinds of failures on all kinds of knives simply due to the volume I handle. Even more so than that I get made aware of a large amount of defects because people know I am interested in it. As always I suggest they contact the maker/manufacturer.

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Re: Broken FRN

Postby Ankerson » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:26 pm

Cliff Stamp wrote: What would I conclude from that - well it isn't unreasonable that someone could shear that material if they had a decently strong wrist and they did a lot of heavy cutting. If you cut into wood and the blade gets stuck, and you do that kind of very strong drive you can force the blade through. Based on the way the material deformed and the material in the above actually cracked. It would seem likely to me it was some kind of material defect. But the only way to know that is to over load a bunch of them and see if they all crack in that area (which would point to a design stress focal point) or would they just crack in random locations.

Again I have seen all kinds of failures on all kinds of knives simply due to the volume I handle. Even more so than that I get made aware of a large amount of defects because people know I am interested in it. As always I suggest they contact the maker/manufacturer.
Mine is still in one piece after I tested it doing exactly that when I ran it, and I do have strong wrists and I do torque the blades etc when I do the wood cutting. Usually have to put all my weight into it taking the deeper cuts and torquing them out.

And I see a high volume of knives like you do.

But then as you pointed out the one that cracked might have had some sort of flaw, it is possible.


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