MT Project (and thoughts on MT19)

[Bodog]

Well, this being my first post on this forum and all, I'd like to say hello and thanks for having me here. I'd like to show appreciation to Sal and all the guys over at spyderco for everything they do. I had a long post typed out and my phone reset so that long post was deleted. Now I'll try to just summarize what I had written.

My MT19 is fantastic. PSF27 at the geometry and heat treat process Spyderco used for the MT19 has performed better for me than S110V, BG42, 154CM, and ingot D2 made by other manufacturers and S30V by spyderco, by a fairly large margin at that. I'm really impressed. The mule team project itself and Sal's treatment and disposition toward his customers and infatuation with steels and good quality knives has truly made me a fan of his company.

So that leads to my question. The MT19 was a dud. It's the truth. Here's a high quality steel made with a new process that is used very little by anyone but some well regarded custom knife makers. I don't get it. There was a frenzy for the K390 and S110V blades. They were latched onto because they're super steels, I get that. PSF27 was talked about as just another D2 variant. So people dismissed it, I get that too, to a point. But with my experience with it, it makes a **** of a blade steel. I didn't buy it to collect or flip. I wanted to know what was up with this steel. From my experience, PSF27 is as different to D2 as what some steel with a completely different composition is. It's a very well rounded steel for everyday utility work. The edge doesn't roll or chip even with some batoning through hardened pallet straps and hard wood or even dropping on the tile floor. The edge sharpness just kind of dwindles off. Reprofiling is a *****, but maintenance of an established bevel a breeze.

So common sense dictates that decisions will be made regarding the direction of the MT project based on the sales of the MT19. It seems that people are buying these to collect and make into safe queens or buy and sit on them and flip them for a profit a year or so down the road. I believe that's the real reason there wasn't much interest, because some people didn't think they could flip it for a profit and the actual users felt like they were experienced enough with D2 to decide they didn't need to check out this steel. I see very little actual testing being done with the reports being fed back to the guys at spyderco, which is the whole point of the project. Where does that leave the project?

Will Sal and his team only produce mules with the latest and greatest wear resistant steels? One model every couple of years? Will they ignore this as a fluke and keep providing mules with innovative or iconic steels but with lower amounts available? Business is business. You can't manufacture something and have stock sitting around. Where does that leave us guys who love the idea of the mule project for what it's supposed to be and not for what some people make it? By that I mean just another collector's edition or a way to flip for profit.

How will Sal and Spyderco as a whole move from here regarding the project? I hope it will remain an avenue to provide rare or innovative or iconic steels to us users and abusers to test and carry. And again, thanks to Spyderco for doing the project. It's an outstanding idea and hope it gets carried forward for years to come.

[Bodog]

Just for good measure.

[sal]

Hi BoDog,

Welcome to our forum and thanx for sharing your thoughts.

The Mule Team project serves as providing potential steels for production, but it also serves the foundry in that they get their steel out in knife form, the steel heads get to try out an exotic steel at an affordable price, DIY guys get to play, and I get to play with blade steels.

sal

[Surfingringo]

Welcome Bodog. Excellent first post. I agree with a lot of the points you make about the mt project. The whole point of the project is to get new steels in the hands of folks who are actually going to use them and provide feedback. I know some folks are doing just that but I think there's way too many of these things sitting in safes. So get out there and put those mules to work boys!

Btw, I have to confess that I kind of dismissed the 19 because of its similarity to d2. Just didn't sound too exciting but I'm interested in hearing more of your thoughts on the steel now. You said you didn't feel like it compared that closely to d2. Is there any other steel you would compare it to?

Edit: Sal posted at the same time as me and after reading his post I guess I need to admit that I obviously didn't know what "the whole point of the mt project" was. :o

[Bodog]

Hi BoDog,

Welcome to our forum and thanx for sharing your thoughts.

The Mule Team project serves as providing potential steels for production, but it also serves the foundry in that they get their steel out in knife form, the steel heads get to try out an exotic steel at an affordable price, DIY guys get to play, and I get to play with blade steels.

sal

Thanks for your response Sal. A couple of direct questions that I hope you'll answer.

Has PSF27 performed up to your expectations?

Has the fact that the MT19 didn't create a frenzy surprise you?

Where do you think you'll go from here with the MT project? Not anything specific like steels or whatever, but will you kind of do your own thing for your own interests knowing they'll probably be good (like psf27) or go more with what's in popular demand?

Will you increase or decrease production numbers based on general level of interest prior to manufacture?

I'm trying to think about things like if I was standing in your shoes. I hope I'm not too up front. I look at the mule team line and each one is a steel I'd like to try out, but I don't know the sales numbers or actual cost to make or store them, the actual cost of doing business, etc. From a business standpoint, has any mule been a disappointment? Has any been a true marvel? Does this affect where you will go in the future? I guess that's what I'm getting at.

Russ

[Bodog]

You said you didn't feel like it compared that closely to d2. Is there any other steel you would compare it to?:o

I wish I could. S110V chipped a lot in real use. S30V is good but rolls and deforms but is stain resistant, of course. 14c28n is good but wear resistance and toughness kind of sucks. 154CM seems like a less wear resistant S30V. 1095 is less stain and wear resistant than psf27. I could go on some more but I'll say that based on my experience, PSF27 is the best all around steel I've owned and used. Stain resistance is acceptable if you take even just slight care of it. It's tough as in I've not seen an edge roll yet with quite a bit of sloppy cutting. It hasn't chipped with the exception of stabbing too deep into a box with a ceramic sink in it, and that chip couldn't really been seen with my naked eye, I had to use a 10x loupe. I cut nasty freaking cardboard, sometimes for 3 or 4 hours a day. Not nice clean stuff either. Random crap coming from overseas with varying thicknesses, dirt, adhesive, etc. Sure, my knife will dull to a working edge by the end of the day, but a quick touch up fixes it, again, with no chips or rolls that I can see. I've done light prying using common sense and it hasn't bent or broken, I don't know if the benchmade d2 could have done the same at the same thickness. That stuff was pretty brittle, imo.

So in the end, I can't say it compares to anything else I've used. The other steels seem like they're set up to do one thing or another well. This one just seems like an all around very solid performer in all areas without being extremely great or poor anywhere. I can see why certain makers like it.

I wish that I could say that I find it to be like "x" on steroids, or like "z" but more stain resistant. I know it'd help.

PS: I should say that I keep it at about 15 degrees per side and have sharpened it probably 4 times by now. That's with some substantial use, though. I'm sure others will have different results based on their personal experiences and methods. I haven't done anything resembling scientific or repeatable testing. I know ankerson tested it and his results are on bladeforums, but edge retention is just part of a whole, not to say I don't appreciate the massive amount of work he puts into his tests or anything.

[bearfacedkiller]

I do not think mt19 was the only one to sell slowly and I believe other mt knives will create a frenzy in the future. 10v, 15v and maxamet should make for some interesting mules if they happen. Some are hot and some are not. People seem to be obsessed with high carbide content. I passed because I just do not need that many fixed blades and I already have a few mules.

[Strong-Dog]

It would be awkward if Bodog was actually just trying to drum up interest because he has some MT19's listed on the Bay that aren't selling.......




LOL. Just kidding man, great first thread. Kind of makes me want to take mine out of the box and use it instead of my K390 or S110V Mules. I just assumed it would perform worse, I'll have to rethink that

[Bodog]

No way man. I'm actually more interested in the decision making process behind the mule team project and was just talking about the 19 as a point of reference. I do have a limited edition knife with a composite pine/oak blade on sale for $3,500 bucks if you're interested :)

[3rdGenRigger]

I haven't bought one due to funds...had to buy a Worker sprint and a Kiwi4 first, and there are a couple of other models out recently that I'll need to buy first. First and foremost because I'm more interested and have more use for folders (I wouldn't even have my K390 Mule if I didn't acquire it as part of a trade...and I'm VERY impressed with it)...that said though, if I have enough money and fullfill my current desire list, MT19 is on my acquire list if there's any left at that point.

[sal]

Hi Russ,

Thanks for your response Sal. A couple of direct questions that I hope you'll answer.
Has PSF27 performed up to your expectations?

I Didn't have any expectations.

Has the fact that the MT19 didn't create a frenzy surprise you?

It surprises me when there is a frenzy. I't's a small world market, steel junky's.

Where do you think you'll go from here with the MT project? Not anything specific like steels or whatever, but will you kind of do your own thing for your own interests knowing they'll probably be good (like psf27) or go more with what's in popular demand?

I do what I think might be good and I do what our customers request.

Will you increase or decrease production numbers based on general level of interest prior to manufacture?

We don't increase or decreae sales as a result of Mule Team sales. Mostly we look for reaction to the steels (like yours).

I'm trying to think about things like if I was standing in your shoes. I hope I'm not too up front. I look at the mule team line and each one is a steel I'd like to try out, but I don't know the sales numbers or actual cost to make or store them, the actual cost of doing business, etc. From a business standpoint, has any mule been a disappointment? Has any been a true marvel? Does this affect where you will go in the future? I guess that's what I'm getting at.

From a business standpoint, most think I'm nuts to try to maintain such a project. Each steel is a learning curve and profit margin is small. We will eventually try to use them all unless one just fails. But we have a pretty good idea of what is good before beginning. If you want to stand in my shoes, try to be a steel junky that wants lab testing and real world teting on all possible blade steels in an effort to evolve the world of blade steels, increase desire for foundries to create newer and better steels, provide steel heads like me with an opportunity for a greater experience than would otherwise be possible. I think you've got me more on the business side than the passion side, but as a truth seeker, I use my position to garner the above.

we've got some really interesting steels on the queue and I'm looking forward to being able to provide them to you.

sal

[Strong-Dog]

No way man. I'm actually more interested in the decision making process behind the mule team project and was just talking about the 19 as a point of reference. I do have a limited edition knife with a composite pine/oak blade on sale for $3,500 bucks if you're interested :)

LOL, I like this guy :D

[3rdGenRigger]

From a business standpoint, most think I'm nuts to try to maintain such a project. Each steel is a learning curve and profit margin is small. We will eventually try to use them all unless one just fails. But we have a pretty good idea of what is good before beginning. If you want to stand in my shoes, try to be a steel junky that wants lab testing and real world teting on all possible blade steels in an effort to evolve the world of blade steels, increase desire for foundries to create newer and better steels, provide steel heads like me with an opportunity for a greater experience than would otherwise be possible. I think you've got me more on the business side than the passion side, but as a truth seeker, I use my position to garner the above.

we've got some really interesting steels on the queue and I'm looking forward to being able to provide them to you.

sal

This IMO epitomizes one of the most fundamental things that sets Spyderco apart from other manufacturers. Keep the new options coming!

[bearfacedkiller]

Sal,

Your posts sometimes leave me in awe. As you already know we hold you in high regard and I believe you are a humble man and you don't need to hear that but I believe I can say for myself and many others, thank you so much. You once said that we all see farther because we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. You always give credit to the people who have contributed to the evolution of knives as well as to the evolution of your product line but without a doubt that statement applies to you as well and your contributions are many and we will all see farther because of you. Keep doing what your doing. :)

[Skidoosh]

CTS-XHP was also compared to steels, "a stainless D-2" or like 440C but better. Every mule surprises me, some I will use in a knife others I will not. When CTS-XHP came out I thought it was lower grade than S30V but after using the mules it has become one of my favorite steels. I don't think there are any duds in the mule team, only steels that have not found their proper context.

[Bodog]

I think it's awesome. It seems like it's one big experiment without profits getting in the way. For a man running a business as big and as well known as spyderco to say that profits don't matter that much, that what's important is having a good product in his customers' hands and an avenue to play and learn and that the business is really just a means to do that, well, I think that's awesome. What a dream come true it must be to be a knife nut, start a business as a knife nut, and make it to a point where you can do pretty much what you want, test what you want, travel where you want, meet with who you want, provide some good stuff to other people so they can have something good in their pocket, too, and provide a good living for yourself and your family, and build something that can pass the same thing down to your kids. Kudos, Mr. Glesser.

[Evil D]

I really don't think calling it a dud is fair at all. The MT project is for testing and evaluation purposes of a variety of steel types, which will no doubt include steels that aren't your "flavor". I agree that I probably wouldn't be blown away with it's edge retention either, but then my preferences are geared more towards those S110V/K390 type steels and not so much the tougher steels. You can't except this project to cater only to the high wear resistant crowd. "All good, just different".

[Bodog]

Oh no man, I wasn't calling its performance a dud. I thought I was pretty clear with my satisfaction with its performance. I was talking about it being a dud as in it didn't sell very well, seems like not many people were excited about it. That's all man. I really dig on the steel. But Sal made it clear that his goal isn't to sell a whole bunch of these blades for profit, it's about other stuff, so how many sold doesn't matter that much except to maybe measure whether a specific steel will sell well in a production run. At least that's how I took it. I'd say it's a win as far performance is concerned, but a dud in that people just didn't get very hyped about it. Sorry for the lack of clarity.

[Evil D]

OH, that's my fault then I missed that part so disregard that last post. As far as sales go, I'm sure there will definitely be hotter steels than others. The good news is that if sales of the mules are any indication, then we may well see a K390 folder someday.

[jabba359]

The K390 and S110V Mules were anomalies in how quickly they sold. Most of the other Mules have hung around for a while. The Cobalt Special seemed like it was never going to sell through the run. While people may not have seemed especially pumped about the PSF27 Mule, I don't see it as being a particularly worse seller than other runs. It may take a while to sell out, but it'll get there in time.