Blerv wrote:I had an AUS-8 Dragonfly SE and a AUS-6 Meerkat SE and by my uninitiated perspective they never got "dull". Serrations also really helped the lower carbon steel (and thicker grinds).
Recipe wise AUS8 isn't much different than 8Cr13Mov or even VG10. I mean, it's 20-30% less carbon than VG10 but sharpens up pretty dang easily.
Blerv you're one of my favorite guys to compare notes with here at Spyderville but on this one I must vehemently disagree with your comparison of blade steels on your recent post. You're saying that AUS-8 isn't much differnt than VG-1:eek: ???? No Sir!!! VG-10 is much, much better blade steel than AUS-8 IMO!!! I'm not basing it on alloy contents or recipe as you put it but I'm basing that totally on performance. Over the years VG-10 has really become my "GO-TO" blade steel and I've yet to be disappointed with it. I've had several knives with both blade steels and I've found a huge gap of difference between AUS-8 and VG-10.
I've even found VG-10 to be significantly better than AUS-10 that they used on the stainless Native model and I even used one of those at one time. I even agree with Yablanowitz concerning his comparison where he says that GIN-1 is even better>> well I agree with him on that too. I'm not going to argue that VG-10 isn't that difficult to sharpen compared to other blade steels that Spyderco has used but it sure holds an edge better. I even found ATS-55 to even be much better than AUS-8.
OK I know we don't agree on everything but the VG-10 blades of Spyderco's that I've used have sold me that they are worthy EDC blades. You certainly had better luck with AUS-6 than I did>> I never got another Spyder with AUS-6 because I never could keep one sharp for any length of time. Just my .02cents but I bet I'm not the only one who thinks that. But we can agree to disagree :)
Yup, my gateway Spydercos were an AUS8 SE Delica and a PE Endura. Still got both. The Delica was used to the point of abuse cutting electrical cable, drywalling and generally punched above it's weight - or maybe it just did what it was designed to do and I pamper my knives now.
More recently a Michael Walker LW, Remote Release 1 and a Jess Horn joined the fold.
I like AUS 8 and have no issues with my newer Al Mars (Falcons and Eagles) in this steel.
I have 2 PE Viele C42s in AUS-8 and a CE Delica. Steel works fine, takes a great edge quickly and with a gents folder like the Viele the edge holding is fine.
I'd love a C42 sprint with Superblue and antique ivory micarta scales :D
JD Spydo wrote:No Sir!!! VG-10 is much, much better blade steel than AUS-8 IMO!!!
It really depends on what you look for in a steel. Aus-8 easily takes a very fine, thin edge that is pretty robust. If you care more for edge-retention over sharpenability and robustness, VG-10 is for you.
I remember a conversation with the head of Fukuzen, the heat-treating company in Seki, Japan, where he told my that he was amazed at so many people choosing VG-10 over Aus-8 for outdoor knives, because VG-10 is a bit less robust.
Ookami wrote:It really depends on what you look for in a steel. Aus-8 easily takes a very fine, thin edge that is pretty robust. If you care more for edge-retention over sharpenability and robustness, VG-10 is for you.
I remember a conversation with the head of Fukuzen, the heat-treating company in Seki, Japan, where he told my that he was amazed at so many people choosing VG-10 over Aus-8 for outdoor knives, because VG-10 is a bit less robust.
Ookami
Yeah that's pretty much what I was basing my liking of VG-10 on. Now don't get me wrong because in no way am I saying that AUS-8 is junk steel because it's not that at all. Because the one Brother just made mention of some new AL MAR models that they still use AUS-8 on and he seems satisfied with it. Like I said earlier I use my AUS-8 full SE Catcherman model almost everyday of the week and I do think AUS-8 is a good steel for Spyderedges. For fully serrated blades AUS-8 is as good as a lot of them are.
The older AUS-8 full SE Endura I had was a really rugged knife and I put it through living **** for almost 2 years before I lost it. No "Ookami" I'm not at all saying that it's not good I just don't think it's anywhere near as good as VG-10 has been to me. Not only do I get good edge retention from it I also get good performance on very rough jobs with it as well.
OK one thing you just said that sort of confuses me>> you said that guy in the Japanese heat treating company said that VG-10 is "less robust">> what did he mean by that???? Because I've used both of my Temperance 1 fixed blade models ( which are VG-10) on many outdoor cutting jobs and I've also used both my TEMP 1 models where I used to work and I really put both blades through hard jobs and I never had a problem with VG-10 compared to other steels I had used in cutlery.
Now I will say that I do think AUS-8 is a little more corrosion resistant that many other steels are. But many of the newer/better blade steels I would take anyday over one of the older ones.
I think he ment Aus8 is more tough due to less carbon,and less alloy.
Perhaps the grain is finer or carbides smaller,I don't know for sure.
But I think he means vg10 is more brittle than Aus8.
Maybe robust refers to ductility.
Jax wrote:I think he ment Aus8 is more tough due to less carbon,and less alloy.
Perhaps the grain is finer or carbides smaller,I don't know for sure.
But I think he means vg10 is more brittle than Aus8.
Maybe robust refers to ductility.
I can't even imagine describing VG-10 as being ductile :confused: VG-10 is anything but ductile. Now I could sort of see AUS-8 as having some ductile properties to it because of it's low carbon content however with the excellent heat treatment that Spyderco has done in the past I'm not ready to even put that on one of their more inexpensive steels either.
I'm wondering if he doesn't mean "robust" by the punishment it's able to endure>> because years ago I read that VG-10 was originally used as an "Agricultural" steel and what they used it on exactly previous to knife blade I haven't a clue.
Now I do know that ATS-34 was used in Aviation in jet engines when Bob Loveless and 2 other well known knifemakers started playing with it. I'm not even sure I would put that label of ductile even on AUS-6. AUS-8 does take a nice edge when using fine and ultra-fine stones but it sure loses it easier than a lot of steels do. VG-10 is one of the best edge holding steels for a general purpose steel of any I've ever used. And it was 3 of Spyderco's models that sold me on VG-10. But I digress because this is an AUS-8 thread and for Spyders that have used that steel. No one seems to remember that one of the most sought after collector pieces and that being the first Lum fixed blade. That's probably the most collectible Spyder with AUS-8. Next to those stainless Caly juniors.
Enkidude wrote:Excuse me if I'm wrong, but I believe VG-10 was created by the Japanese for grafting trees.
All I know is that I heard way back in the early 2000s was that VG-10 was originally made to be an agricultural steel. I guess grafting fruit trees would fall under the definition of "agriculture">> But the term agriculture could encompass a lot of terms dealing with botany, food production, greenhouse uses or even working in orchards or vineyards for that matter.
Victorinox probably has more grafting knives in their main line up that any other knife company I know of. I don't know exactly what steel they use but I doubt if it's as good as VG-10. It seems like I heard that a lot of their blades are made with 440C or something like it.
For all that matters I can't see why you couldn't use AUS-8 for agricultural purposes? There are a lot of respectable knife companies including AL MAR who I personally have a ton of respect for that still use AUS-8 as one of their main blade steels. I don't think Spyderco has used it in years to my knowledge.
NoFair wrote:I have 2 PE Viele C42s in AUS-8 and a CE Delica. Steel works fine, takes a great edge quickly and with a gents folder like the Viele the edge holding is fine.
I'd love a C42 sprint with Superblue and antique ivory micarta scales :D
That Viele model just like the JD Smith was terribly overlooked and under-appreciate IMO. I too would be up for a Sprint run of the Viele in SUPERBLUE or even ZDP-189. If they did the Sprint here in the USA at the Golden CO Earth plant I would love to see them done in S90V.
There were so many overlooked and under-appreciated models in the late 90s>> The big Calypso was probably the most underappreciated Spyder along with the JD Smith and the ZDP-189 version of the Jess Horn
Re: Robustness
With robust I meant that Aus-8 is a bit tougher - less brittle and more resistant to breaking if you will. While VG-10 is just fine for most folders and short fixed blade knives, Aus-8 is better for larger outdoor knives - that's basically what the heat treatment specialist from Seki meant to say, maybe I was a bit unclear in my choice of words.
In the realm of outdoor knives there are basically two schools of thought:
average to high sharpness, high hardness + superior edge retention, possibly toothy edge
vs.
extreme sharpness, toughness + ease of sharpening, smooth edge
Hunters usually prefer the former, woodcrafters usually the latter.
Re: Agriculture
I also heard that VG-10 was developed for grafting trees. The steel needed to be able to take an acute edge that should also have some "bite" to it. It needed to be stainless and have a high edge retention, too.
You could certainly use Aus-8 for grafting knives, especially if you consider that Victorinox uses 1.4110 (German designation, similar to Aus-6 or 440A) steel for their knives. Just goes to show that the optimum heat treat makes all the difference.
Ookami wrote:Re: Robustness
With robust I meant that Aus-8 is a bit tougher - less brittle and more resistant to breaking if you will. While VG-10 is just fine for most folders and short fixed blade knives, Aus-8 is better for larger outdoor knives - that's basically what the heat treatment specialist from Seki meant to say, maybe I was a bit unclear in my choice of words.i
Well "Ookami" you've cleared the air concerning the performance value of AUS-8>> but now it's got me to wondering a lot. I now know why they used AUS-8 on that first fixed blade Bob Lum model>> which at first I was perplexed as to why they used that steel when they were already making fixed blades with VG-10.
But I will say that I've had nothing but excellent luck with my two "old standby" fixed blades and those are my PE & SE Temperance 1 models ( that have VG-10 blade steel) that I use almost 6 to 8 times a week. I've had excellent luck with VG-10 in fixed blades for the most part and you have to consider Spyderco still using it in the "Streetbeat", Temperance 2, and Moran models. So with that being said I thought it was strange that he used AUS-8 in that first Bob Lum fixed blade and at the time I couldn't figure out why.
Personally I've had better luck overall with VG-10 than I had previously with any AUS-8 blade>> it sure holds an edge better for me and I put my fixed blade outdoor knives through a lot of punishment and hard jobs. You've really now made me wonder why a company like Victorinox would use a steel equivalent to AUS-6 or 440A on their knives. But on the other hand you can't knock success. Of course the bottom line with most of these companies is profit margin. Whereas Spyderco crosses that line more than many other companies to assure good quality.
I think with Victorinox it is mostly due to price considerations. Most non-knife people aren't even aware of the supersteels, they just want the functionality of a Swiss pocket knife. If Victorinox offered super steels the price would go up. As it is now, one can buy a two or three layer Victorinox for around 20€ and get a decent pocket knife plus great customer service.
1.4110 is a decent steel if heat treated right and at Victorinox they know how to do that, like Buck does with their 420HC or W.R.Case&Sons does with their Tru-Sharp™ steel. Or other companies do with their preferred steels, like Böker (1.4034) or Opinel and Mora (12C27). All of these steels are not considered anything to write home about and are held in even lower regard by some steel junkies than Aus-8, but they do a decent job.
The bottom line is that a good heat treat can make even cheap steels shine while a bad heat treat will mess up the best steel. Think about all those cheap knives with 440C steel, which is supposedly "better" than all of the above, and how these knives compare to knives by quality manufacturers.
I still carry my Delica AUS-8 today. Been carrying it for some 20 years. Kind of silly since i have a bunch of other Spydies. I like the molded pocket clip because it's easier on the pants pocket. I bought a Delica 4 (VG-10) to replace it whenever I lose it or it breaks but I'm thinking it's going to sit in the box a while longer. I think I've lost 1 knife in 57 years and this old Delica AUS-8 just keeps on ticking.
