A Spyderco truly high performance paring knife ?

[Cliff Stamp]

I was recently gifted this knife :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6ojakvufUY

It does not look overly impressive, in fact it is a little rough in finish and it didn't come very sharp (though it was opened and came through customs so no idea on as-factory sharpness). However, and this is a big however, it has the ideal and fully optimized grind for cutting ability for a paring knife.

-very thin stock, 0.045"
-full flat grind
-true micro-edge bevel only

This kind of knife isn't easy to find in the west, I am not saying it is impossible. It would be interesting if Spyderco could put out a paring knife (or maybe even a line of knives) which is based on a similar geometry and noting, just as Herder does, that they are designed to cut and not resist damage.

This also has to be with a high edge stability steel, this means no SXXV series steels, they are far too weak at the thin cross sections that are ground in this kind of knife. As Spyderco works with Carpenter there is an obvious choice, CTS-BZD1 this is carpenters razor blade steel : http://www.cartech.com/ssalloysprod.aspx?id=4395 which is a high edge stability stainless.

I have been checking inexpensive brands, and it is common to now see edges as low as 0.005" and under 15 dps on even 5-$10 knives. It would be nice to see Spyderco put out a range of knives to set the bar above this and set a standard for :

-cutting ability
-high sharpness
-edge retention at high sharpness
-ease of sharpening

in kitchen cutlery. Doing this in a stainless, as opposed to the carbon steel used in the Herder would also make it more appealing to a more broad user base.

But again, trying to make this in a high carbide steel is a pointless exercise, it would have to be done with a high edge stability steel to give it all the properties noted in the above.

[araneae]

How would mbs26 work in your opinion?

[RealKnifeUser]

Cliff I think that's a great idea. By series of knives, you mean an entire line of kitchen knives, each with similar geometry to your example, but with maybe a slight variance in stock thickness thats apropriate for the design of each blade, pearing, santoku, utility, etc..? If so, I would definitely be interested. This would beat the heck out of any competitors knives too.

[Donut]

"Have we lost our sense of understanding of how geometry influences cutting ability and durability?" Huh? :p

I'll take a G-10 Chaparral with that type of grind in the steel of your choice.

[Mallus]

I for one think this is a brilliant idea! There doesn't seem to be too many stainless steel kitchen knives that are truly performance oriented. I'd try to spring for several knives that are very thin behind the edge at an acute edge angle, and are easy to sharpen.

Our local Finnish makers like Fiskars run their steel so soft for some reason (steeling?) that it's hard to get a very sharp edge on them, they are prone to forming gummy burr.

So, choosing a right steel, grinding it thin and putting good effort to heat treating it optimally should give very nice results. If you'd still have an ergonomic and functional design (blade shapes for the intended purpose) on top of that, you'd have a winner in your hands!

I have zero interest in any tacticool thick high carbide volume kitchen knives. They are likely going to end up way more expensive than what Cliff suggested and will defitively perform worse in kitchen.

[ohcyclist]

The video was very interesting and thought provoking.

It would be outstanding if Spyderco was to start manufacturing something in this space. If a little dreaming is allowed, how about a sprint version of this new spyderco paring knife in super blue to kick off the series?

[Ankerson]

I for one think this is a brilliant idea! There doesn't seem to be too many stainless steel kitchen knives that are truly performance oriented. I'd try to spring for several knives that are very thin behind the edge at an acute edge angle, and are easy to sharpen.

Our local Finnish makers like Fiskars run their steel so soft for some reason (steeling?) that it's hard to get a very sharp edge on them, they are prone to forming gummy burr.

So, choosing a right steel, grinding it thin and putting good effort to heat treating it optimally should give very nice results. If you'd still have an ergonomic and functional design (blade shapes for the intended purpose) on top of that, you'd have a winner in your hands!

I have zero interest in any tacticool thick high carbide volume kitchen knives. They are likely going to end up way more expensive than what Cliff suggested and will defitively perform worse in kitchen.

The market is really already pretty flooded with higher performance kitchen knives, paring knives etc.

It doesn't take very long to find them either, the Japanese make a large variety of them in different styles from traditional Japanese to Western Style.

Then there are the European manufacturers also along with the Chinese and Taiwan made knives in various styles.

So it will just come down to the target market one wants to be in.

Low end, Mid range or higher end.

The low end is already over flooded and one can get really cheap kitchen knives just about anywhere.

The Higher End isn't so bad, but the Customer base is much narrower due the price.

The Mid Range could be the place to be, but pricing would be important and there are a number of high quality knives already on the market.

Spyderco is already bringing back their kitchen line so they already have an idea where they want to be, and the steel choice has already been made, MBS-26.

So the knives will be made in Japan due to the steel choice in a factory that already knows how to produce high performance knives. :)

[Cliff Stamp]

Our local Finnish makers like Fiskars run their steel so soft for some reason (steeling?) that it's hard to get a very sharp edge on them, they are prone to forming gummy burr.

This used to be common and it was partnered exactly as you said with steeling, often on a grooved steel and if you are using that kind of maintenance then it is a sensible approach. But the edge ends up in a state of always being deformed and strained and you never get the performance you can with a truly high sharpness edge. But many people are not looking for that and want an ok sharpness which is easy to maintain.

How would mbs26 work in your opinion?

It isn't intended for the type of knife I described. MBS-26 is the same class of steel as 19C27 from Sandvik which is intended/designed for coarse cutting edges on abrasive material. This is a similar steel as ATS-34, VG-10, S30V etc. . The type of knife in the video is a very specialized knife and it takes a very specialized steel to make it work.

To give some perspective, Phil Wilson who gets a lot of discussion here for high performance cutting runs his edges as 0.005-0.010". This means he grinds from 5-10X as thick as the Herder. This means the relative thickness of the Herder to Wilson is even more dramatic than comparing Wilson to a large chopping knife from TOP's.

If you make a scale from 1-10 and you put the Herder at 10, most knives, in regards to optimization of cutting geometry, including Wilson will be 1-2 at most.

Now you can get custom knives which have similar grinds, but they are not common and even people known for very thin grinds like Krein and much, much heavier ground than the Herder. A poster on the video noted that the Herder makes the Opinel looks like a Strider, this seems like hyperbole but it is reality.

By series of knives, you mean an entire line of kitchen knives, each with similar geometry to your example, but with maybe a slight variance in stock thickness thats apropriate for the design of each blade, pearing, santoku, utility, etc..?

Sure, however that is a little ambitious maybe to start. However Herder does have that same extreme geometry on larger knives, it isn't just on the paring knives.

[Mallus]

The market is really already pretty flooded with higher performance kitchen knives, paring knives etc.

...

The Mid Range could be the place to be, but pricing would be important and there are a number of high quality knives already on the market.

Spyderco is already bringing back their kitchen line so they already have an idea where they want to be, and the steel choice has already been made, MBS-26.

So the knives will be made in Japan due to the steel choice in a factory that already knows how to produce high performance knives. :)

I already have the 6" plain edge MBS-26 utility coming, and it looks quite promising on paper. We'll see how it performs in practice. Too bad the Sermollan handle was replaced by polypropylene, though I understand the grounds for the choice. A bit nicer handle material (Micarta) would sweeten the deal for me. A longer (~9") gyuto /chef's knife would be nice and I'd buy a thin chinese cleaver (for veggies) as well. I almost bought Mark Richmonds AEB-L cleaver (Fanatic), but upon hearing of the fuxored heat treat, have decided to wait untill somebody doess the job well.

Unlike Jim, and without yet knowing what Spyderco will eventually churn out with their Japanese maker, I haven't really found any nice stainless kitchen knives outside of custom orders in AEB-L class of steels. If you have suggestions, I'd be interested to hear them out.

[Cliff Stamp]

I haven't really found any nice stainless kitchen knives outside of custom orders in AEB-L class of steels.

The Takayuki Grand Chef and Kikuichi Swedish Warikomi production line use AEB-L, but the price is actually higher than custom makers who do quality work in that class of steels. Jeremy McCullen for example uses AEB-L and 14C28N, Peter's does his hardening. He has YT video's on his knives.

The purpose of this thread however isn't for Spyderco to make a line of knives of that nature, it is to make a line of knives of the nature of the Herder which is again can be bought on line for $10. Now yes, in a high edge stability stainless, hardened for optimal performance it isn't going to be $10, but it should not be in custom range either - that is pointless.

[Cliff Stamp]

Here is a Chef from Jeremy :



It is the middle one with a custom over size handle.

The edge was ~0.007" at the shoulder, but he can grind to any limit you ask, he runs a coolant while grinding and hand sharpens.

[Ankerson]

I already have the 6" plain edge MBS-26 utility coming, and it looks quite promising on paper. We'll see how it performs in practice. Too bad the Sermollan handle was replaced by polypropylene, though I understand the grounds for the choice. A bit nicer handle material (Micarta) would sweeten the deal for me. A longer (~9") gyuto /chef's knife would be nice and I'd buy a thin chinese cleaver (for veggies) as well. I almost bought Mark Richmonds AEB-L cleaver (Fanatic), but upon hearing of the fuxored heat treat, have decided to wait untill somebody doess the job well.

Unlike Jim, and without yet knowing what Spyderco will eventually churn out with their Japanese maker, I haven't really found any nice stainless kitchen knives outside of custom orders in AEB-L class of steels. If you have suggestions, I'd be interested to hear them out.

There are a number of custom makers who use AEB-L, was on the phone with one about 30 mins ago actually. :D

[Blerv]

Thanks for the vid, Cliff. That certainly is a thin edge! :D

I agree with Jim. The mid range is the tough part. I enjoy my Kai Pure knives but would put then in the bin for a set f Spydies of similar design :) . The return of the 6" blade from Spyderco has been great. Throw in a paring knife like this one from Cliff and that would be even better.

[Cliff Stamp]

The mid range is the tough part.

It should not be difficult to find these locally. Almost all brands now have a line which is ground to a much thinner edge than the standard, they are usually called something similar to "fine edge" though they can often be called something silly like "laser sharpened" or similar. Henckels, Farberware, etc. all have that class of blade they are :

-5Cr13 steels
-extended quench
-<0.010"/15 dps edge

They will usually also use terms like "ice hardened" to refer to the extended quench, they might actually say "cryogenically tempered" or similar (it isn't a temper) but most people won't know what that means so they usually refer to just ice/cold. I can easily fine them here with/without bolsters in various shapes and sizes from $5 to $20, on sale they are usually under $10.

High end production would be :

-hotter/shorter soak + faster/extended quench

The geometry, balance, shape, etc. is all going to be unchanged. Do not expect a massive difference in this HT from the $10 knife though as you are only talking about :

-5-15% reduction in retained austenite
-increased chromium in solution

The biggest observable would be the chromium as you can get spotting fairly easily on most of the < $20 ones due to the HT they get. With a proper HT, 5Cr13 steels are very corrosion resistant, just look at Jeremy and Kyley's video's on YT where they do salt water soaks, boiling vinegar soaks, etc. .

The increased ease of sharpening is really noticable for me as is the initial sharpness, but that depends on how you are sharpening, you have to be going to push cutting newsprint (true 90) to even be able to see it at all.

[Blerv]

Thanks Cliff!

Do you have any experience with the Opinel carbon paring knives? They are two for $18.

[Mallus]

I've been thinking about both Jeremy McCullen for 14C28, and Joe Calton for his 1095 kitchen knives and may end up trying either or both at some point. However, these are, albeit very very nice based on Cliff's and others' reviews for the money, still way more expensive than what should be possible in large scale production settings.

If Robert Herder is able to manufacture something as well performing with such a rock bottom price in Europe out of carbon steel, shouldn't it be possible for Spyderco to produce equally well performing knives of slightly higher level of finishing out of AEB-L or comparable, without it ending up in the price category of nuclear submarines?

[Cliff Stamp]

Do you have any experience with the Opinel carbon paring knives?

No, can't buy them locally, the folders are nice though. They tend to come with uneven primary grinds but they are very easy to grind so they can be evened out in just a few minutes with a decent stone.

If Robert Herder is able to manufacture something as well performing with such a rock bottom price in Europe out of carbon steel, shouldn't it be possible for Spyderco to produce equally well performing knives of slightly higher level of finishing out of AEB-L or comparable, without it ending up in the price category of nuclear submarines?

Yes, that was the exact question of interest. Assuming it was desired, what would be the cost of say a simple set of chef+paring knives made from the Carpenter razor blade steel (or equivalent) with flash soak, oil + deep quench, double temper for maximum strength?

[araneae]

No, can't buy them locally, the folders are nice though. They tend to come with uneven primary grinds but they are very easy to grind so they can be evened out in just a few minutes with a decent stone.

Cliff, do you want to split a 2 pack? I have been thinking about grabbing an Opi parer for a while. I have a load of their folders and love them.

[kbuzbee]

No, can't buy them locally,

They are here:

http://www.opinel-usa.com/collections/o ... wpwsJK9KSM

I have a set. Use them every single day. They are terrific!

Ken

[Cliff Stamp]

Appreciate the offer, however I don't live in the US and the cost of sending me the knife would be far more than the knife itself.

I did some checking today while I was at Walmart and noticed again how common it is for knife brands to have "fine edge"versions and they all have two very clear features :

-they are ground much finer, the edge is thinner and the angle is reduced (< 0.015"/15 dps is common, as low as 0.005"/10 dps is possible)

-they are clearly marketed for cutting ability and they warn about durability

I have noticed this getting much more common in recent years and do think that Spyderco could do something similar and not just with the kitchen knives, though some care would have to be taken in regards to durability-liability.