Children and knife education

[Bladekeeper]

Hi I'd like to ask opinions on how you approach a child's interest in knives or wether you encourage interest and learning.
The uk where I am has a different culture to the USA on knives and guns but I believe its education and example.
We in the uk have fairly tight laws despite this there have been lots of fatal stabbings involving young teens usually .
As a parent of four I think its up to us to change the public perception and the future generation is the way forward.
I have two girls and two boys my eldest son when I started collecting often referred to knives as solely weapons , my youngest daughter however saw them as tools .
I have taught them both how to handle a knife properly and use them for whittling and camping chores.
I can trust my daughter 9 to be sensible but boys being boys my son older wants to throw and see how they were used as weapons historically .
I have personal experience with the Gurkha regiment and have taught him the history and about samurai and bayonets etc.
I want to get my daughter her first knife maybe a bug the wife who has one is unsure incase of accidents.
Where do you guys stand how have you shared with your children I understand its a different place but still would like to hear .
I'm forever reading about people saying back in the day they took sak like knives to school and it was just an everyday thing.
Wouldn't it be great to get rid of the pc stupidity and start giving our kids more credit its the minority that ruin it .
Thanks for listening to the long winded post :D

[SolidState]

I think that Spyderco has a great first step, which is the Wooden Dragonfly kit. Not only do kids get to learn about proper storage and carry of a safe knife with something that looks real enough for education, but they get to build it and see how it works.

I think the second step is to get them a small blade, once they've shown responsible, and invest in superglue and bandages. Hatchets are a great way to get kids into edged implements in a relatively safe manner as well. They also don't damage as easily when kids use them to pry etc.

My parents put me in martial arts from a young age. That was sufficient to teach me respect for edged implements. I guess you could do that if you want. I know that is what I will do.

[SolidState]

...

[The Deacon]

With both girls and boys, if you want to emphasize the "tool" aspect of knives, it might be best to start them off in the kitchen, peeling and slicing up veggies and fruit. Next step might be getting them something like a Mora and getting them started with bushcraft.

[SQSAR]

Your awareness of the fact that this is even an issue is a really good 1st step in making sure your kids understand what exactly a knife is, and how it is 1st a tool, but one that is very unique in its ability to be used as a weapon. Like so many issues with adolesants, removing the taboo of knives helps mitigate the possibility of a child wanting to mess with one in secret and then drawing their own conclusions based or the media and their peer group's definition.

[akaAK]

My daughter (3) has a purple delica and purple leatherman Juice waiting for her when she is responsible enough to use them correctly. Since converting my wife to the usefullness of pocket knives (pink delica 4, etched spin and the ce ocelot she stole from me because she likes the paw prints) we have a pretty "edge" friendly home. My daughter understands that she can have things cut or opened using a pocket knife already and will bring the item to me and ask me to use my knife. This is hopefully a good start in her understanding of knives as tools.

She also watches me prep food in the kitchen regularily. While I have always tried to be safe around edges, her watching has made me even more intent on using proper knife handling techniques. Kids are sponges for what they see and experience.

I think education and an appropriate assessment of the childs understanding and abilities are the best way to go. I was lucky to have access to a wide variety of tools and equipment at a yound age with a good teacher (father). She is still a bit young for the wooden DF kit but it is waiting for her as well.

[Zenith]

Some good links here

http://www.akti.org/education

[Evil D]

The first thing I told my son when he started showing an interest in my hobby was that they are NOT weapons and are never to be used as such. When he's a grown man he can decide how he wants to EDC his knife and for what purpose, but at this age he needs to see a knife as a tool and only as a tool. He has also cut himself with my Paramilitary so he has learned how it feels to have a knife used on you, which I think is a valuable lesson. I'm not saying go let your kids cut themselves with a knife, but there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path and he now knows both sides.

[phillipsted]

I am an Eagle Scout and active adult Scout Leader. I really like the way Boy Scouts incorporates the use of tools into its outdoor and life skills education program. They focus not only on knives, but the responsible use, care, and maintenance of other edged tools (e.g., hatchets, axes, saws), kitchen cutlery, bows and arrows, sporting firearms, as well as pioneering tools (e.g., rope, climbing equipment) and orienteering gear (e.g., maps, compasses, GPS).

TedP

[O,just,O]

If kids have a fascination or curiosity about anything, they will satisfy it.
If this is with you, sensibly & responsibly, or if it is behind the bike shed so to speak, is totaly up to you.
No is not an answer from you that will be tollerated for too long before going elsewhere where the answer is " yes sure come in, see like this & this".
O.

[Eee]

I've got two daughters. They and Mrs Eee and most of our friends laugh at me because of my constant mantra "It's a tool not a weapon". It's strange how the some of the most ardent NKPs pick up your knife and start waving it around like a weapon. Makes me think the problem is them, not the knife. But by using one on a daily basis, in a matter of fact way, knives have become demistified in my house.

Both my daughters have a knife. Living in the UK, it makes sense of them to have either a slip joint or a fixed blade, so the youngest has a Pink Izula and the older one has a small Michael Morris fixed blade and a Byrd Wings Slipit. She knows about slip joints folding on your fingers and will only use one with a choil. I'd recommend a Byrd Tern for that reason.

[chuck_roxas45]

The "it's a tool and not a weapon" mantra really does sound silly to NKP. I do in fact, think it's just a placebo that we try to placate ourselves and others with. My thinking is that if you can use a pen or an ashtray as a weapon, then so much more a sharp, pointy thing. The fact that we don't intend to use them as weapons does not invalidate the millienia of people getting killed with knives.

Having said that, my 6 year old granddaughter never touches mine or her father's guns and knives because she knows they are not toys and have the capability to kill or cause harm.

[Evil D]

The "it's a tool and not a weapon" mantra really does sound silly to NKP. I do in fact, think it's just a placebo that we try to placate ourselves and others with. My thinking is that if you can use a pen or an ashtray as a weapon, then so much more a sharp, pointy thing. The fact that we don't intend to use them as weapons does not invalidate the millienia of people getting killed with knives.

Having said that, my 6 year old granddaughter never touches mine or her father's guns and knives because she knows they are not toys and have the capability to kill or cause harm.

I can see the point you're trying to make, but we teach our kids not to beat each other with hammers and baseball bats, yet those are also used as deadly weapons hundreds of times per year in murders. I would say that the club has been used to bash another person's head in for much longer than any edged weapon has. I teach my kids to use knives in the same way I would teach them to use a hammer...the way I feel they were intended to be used, which is as a tool. I don't see a knife as a weapon, I see it as a tool, just the same as I don't see a hammer as a weapon, I see it as a tool. This is despite the fact that both can be and are used as weapons...the point is that their primary use is not as a weapon, but as a tool. If NKP don't like the sound of it, maybe that's because they see knives as weapons first and tools second...maybe that shows a problem with society as a whole and why there are so many hammer and baseball bat related murders each year. Maybe THEY have the problem with seeing these things as weapons first and tools second. I'm just trying to make sure my kids don't suffer that same ignorance.

[SolidState]

If NKP don't like the sound of it, maybe that's because they see knives as weapons first and tools second...maybe that shows a problem with society as a whole and why there are so many hammer and baseball bat related murders each year. Maybe THEY have the problem with seeing these things as weapons first and tools second. I'm just trying to make sure my kids don't suffer that same ignorance.

If you think about the slogan involving all of god's creatures having knives, it is pretty understandable why humans naturally look at knives as weapons. Any time an animal in the animal kingdom bares its teeth or claws, it is seen as aggressive, even though they use those tools to eat, climb, dig etc. Teeth and claws are tools first, but when they're shown, they're viewed as weapons by almost all of god's creatures. I don't think it's all that unnatural to see a knife in the same way as claws or teeth.

I think that the key aspect for dealing with any of this stuff is the level of civility and respect with which you approach the tool. I think this is where Ted nails it on the scouting approach. When NKPs start swinging knives, they are showing that they lack the civility and respect for the situation. I've had some really terrible and awkward moments involving NSPs (non-sword-people) thinking it wise to pick up my katana and swing it like an idiot just because they have hands. A 3' razor is way worse than a 4" razor being swung by an idiot.

[Bladekeeper]

I think the weapon aspect is relative my explanation to my children as I stated above is there are knives that were designed as weapons , however owning a knife or using one is not exclusive to that point.
I've told them stories about Gurkhas using their weapons , "but you have a khukri dad why" .."because its a good tool that can be used as a wood chopper" ..."ohh but Gurkha soldiers kill with theirs that's right yes? ") .. "Yes".
There is no point in lying or trying to detract but to educate there are so many examples that they will hear of that is in reference to weapons , I'm not despite being raised and baptised a catholic religious.
But their are many bible stories containing references to knives , swords as weapons.
I think as stated in one of the posts it's breaking the taboo the more you say no the more mystery it has for a child its down to us to teach, and not only kids but nkp.
I could leave a razor sharp knife on the table knowing it wouldn't be touched I don't but a nkp would say that shouldn't even be left there a child may pick it up and injure themselves .
But as I explain I've taught my children although accidents still happen its ridiculous that in the uk eg our kids aren't allowed to play conkers in case of injury and we don't have a litigation culture here , its this type of attitude I'd like to see change.
But how do we do it most media report only the bad it would be so good to see an article about knives in a positive light do you think it will happen though ? .

[chuck_roxas45]

I can see the point you're trying to make, but we teach our kids not to beat each other with hammers and baseball bats, yet those are also used as deadly weapons hundreds of times per year in murders. I would say that the club has been used to bash another person's head in for much longer than any edged weapon has. I teach my kids to use knives in the same way I would teach them to use a hammer...the way I feel they were intended to be used, which is as a tool. I don't see a knife as a weapon, I see it as a tool, just the same as I don't see a hammer as a weapon, I see it as a tool. This is despite the fact that both can be and are used as weapons...the point is that their primary use is not as a weapon, but as a tool. If NKP don't like the sound of it, maybe that's because they see knives as weapons first and tools second...maybe that shows a problem with society as a whole and why there are so many hammer and baseball bat related murders each year. Maybe THEY have the problem with seeing these things as weapons first and tools second. I'm just trying to make sure my kids don't suffer that same ignorance.

I just think that it's sillier to bury our heads in the ground and try to ignore the danger of tools and their duality. Do you just explain what a hammer is for and refuse to accept the capacity for harm that it can do?

I think that the key aspect for dealing with any of this stuff is the level of civility and respect with which you approach the tool. I think this is where Ted nails it on the scouting approach. When NKPs start swinging knives, they are showing that they lack the civility and respect for the situation. I've had some really terrible and awkward moments involving NSPs (non-sword-people) thinking it wise to pick up my katana and swing it like an idiot just because they have hands. A 3' razor is way worse than a 4" razor being swung by an idiot.

I agree about the civility that you mention but maybe a better word is "respect"? There's a show I sometimes see in the course of things that has some interesting things but I really hate the crap out of the host(Extreme Cities and the silly Simon Yin) because he has a tendency to wave bladed things around and growl. Even that time that he had a kayak paddles he was screaming and waving it like it was a bo stick. That to me shows the the same silliness on the other end of the spectrum as calling a knife just a tool.

[SolidState]

Even that time that he had a kayak paddles he was screaming and waving it like it was a bo stick. That to me shows the the same silliness on the other end of the spectrum as calling a knife just a tool.

Exactly!

[tonydahose]

I have thought on this long and hard. I probably put up 3 or 4 threads on the subjest as well just trying to get everyones thought on the subject. It isn't easy trying to figure out what knives to get my kids and what age to give those knives to them, especially with a wife that is over protective of her babies. Last year I bought them some wooden folding knives, my son wanted me to drill a hole in his so it would be like Dad's knives :D . Thread here This year they got some real :spyder: s, the wooden dragonfly. This past year they really didnt show much interest in the knives and so far they havent even asked to put the dragonflys together yet. I think this is due partly having entirely way too many new toys and for the following reason. I think the wooden knives are a cool idea but how much pretending to cut things with them can you do before it gets old and you put the knife back on the shelf and forget about it? There is something to be said for having a real blade. My first knife that i carried had a maybe 3/4" blade and that was after the flat head screwdriver tip it had. It would actually cut things and yourself, (well at first until i dulled the heck out of it). I would love to see a Chicago size blade knife with sheepsfoot front in a kopa style handle made just for kids. (Not that i have given it much thought :p ). Any thoughts on this Sal? Maybe you could do a 3 step program for kids, the first one the wooden dragonfly, the second one like the idea above and the third maybe a smaller Junior, a Junior Jr. :D .

The old timers on the board have seen these but it seemed like a good thread to show the newer guys/gals with kids these knives in case you want to personalize your kids' first knife. ( I hope the O.P. doesn't mind) These knives are sitting in my collection waiting to be given to my kids when they get older. The endura was engraved by Lone Wolf and Spyderco engraved the pink one to match.

[phillipsted]

My thinking is that if you can use a pen or an ashtray as a weapon, then so much more a sharp, pointy thing. The fact that we don't intend to use them as weapons does not invalidate the millienia of people getting killed with knives.

I aways enjoy re-reading this section from G. Gordon Liddy's autobiography:

"What happened, actually, was that in October of 1974, Federal marshals escorted me to the offices of Watergate special prosecutor James Neal for an interview and told me to wait in Neal's office, as he was expected shortly. I went in and shut the door behind me and, lo and behold, there was Dean sitting behind the desk. He looked up and I could have sworn he was about to wet himself. His eyes darted all around the room, but I was between him and the door and I could see that he was absolutely terror-stricken. My first thought was that here was the ideal opportunity to kill the bastard. I saw a pencil on the desk and all it would take was a quick thrust through the underside of his jaw, up through the soft palate and deep inside the brain. And simultaneously, I wondered if this were a setup, if someone had arranged for me to be alone with Dean, anticipating exactly such a denouement. But then, on more somber reflection, I ruled that out. Nixon had been out of office for two months, I had received no instructions from my old superiors and, in any case, his killing could only damage the chances of Mitchell, Mardian and others in their forthcoming trials. No, revenge might be a dish best supped cold, but this was positively stale. The whole thing had just been a weird, stupid error. So I exchanged a few inconsequential remarks with Dean, he stammered a reply and I stepped aside so he could gather his papers and scurry out the door. I think he aged considerably in those three of four minutes."

[Evil D]

I just think that it's sillier to bury our heads in the ground and try to ignore the danger of tools and their duality. Do you just explain what a hammer is for and refuse to accept the capacity for harm that it can do?

Well it's not like he doesn't know it can be used as a weapon. We're talking about a 9 year old boy...anything he can pick up that remotely resembles a gun turns into a weapon of war and he's in the back yard running around blowing everything up. He understands the potential uses that a knife has...that's entirely different than teaching them right from wrong. I'm not saying we blind our kids to the potential uses, i'm just saying you teach them the right and wrong way to use it. I've actually gone into great detail about what could happen with a knife if not respected, both to him and to others. That doesn't change my stance on it being a tool and not a weapon. We can split hairs all day about the duality of things that can be used as weapons, but to me none of those items make their primary use any less than what it is. I can probably beat you to death with a pillow if i try hard enough lol