Southard too expensive?

[Jim Malone]

Looking from a customer perspective the southard seems overpriced IMHO. If you look at the Szabo you get CF S30V and some pretty impressive engineering.
The Southard has a Ti RIL but no apparant other design features or materials that explains the high price, apart from the ball bearings. No springs, intricate machining. You would think it would be cheaper then say the Ti Military.
So why the higher price? Is it the royalties ?

[Holland]

The materials for the knife are expensive. TI isnt cheap, and CTS-204p i would imagine is harder to buy and harder to use in production then s30v.

[Blerv]

What royalties? The Szabo is a collaboration as well.

MSRP is based on cost to make. Given the two knives come from the same maker and are both collabs I have to think the Southard is simply more expensive to make. The bushing system, 204p (instead of S30v) and what-not.

For my budget the Southard is too expensive. That doesn't make the valuation incorrect...it just makes it personally uncomfortable. I couldn't deem it "overpriced" unless I knew the cost to make it relative to a number of other models. I know Brad's custom ATW starts at about $435 if that matters.

[FroOchie]

From what I've been reading the blade steel is most similar to M390 which is expensive when you look at the other knives like the Millie and Para2 that come in those steels so in that regard it's a steal. No pun intended... ok maybe a bit. Obviously add in the Titanium and the fact that it's a collabo AND Spyderco's first production folder I feel like the price is set correctly in an arena where most good quality knives are pricey.

[bh49]

I can be wrong, but I think that overpriced is little subjective term. A lot depends on what we can afford and how much do we like it.

From what I've been reading the blade steel is most similar to M390 which is expensive when you look at the other knives like the Millie and Para2 that come in those steels so in that regard it's a steal.

I am not sure that this is correct. 204p para2 sold for the same price as S35V para2 and just little more than regular S30V, which also can be due to higher profit margin on 204p variant than regular production. Sal mentioned few times that Spyderco sells regular production Manix2 and para at lower profit margin. It looks like these supersteels are not adding to the cost as much as CF or titanium scales.

[FroOchie]

I can be wrong, but I think that that overpriced is little subjective term. A lot depends on what we can afford and how much do we like it.
I am not sure that this is correct. 204p para2 sold for the same price as S35V para2 and just little more than regular S30V, which also can be due to higher profit margin on 204p variant than regular production. Sal mentioned few times that Spyderco sells regular production Manix2 and para at lower profit margin. It looks like these supersteels are not adding to the cost as much as CF or titanium scales.

Well if thats the case then it's too expensive... haha, jk, it's still ok for me.

[JNewell]

Looking from a customer perspective the southard seems overpriced IMHO. If you look at the Szabo you get CF S30V and some pretty impressive engineering.
The Southard has a Ti RIL but no apparant other design features or materials that explains the high price, apart from the ball bearings. No springs, intricate machining. You would think it would be cheaper then say the Ti Military.
So why the higher price? Is it the royalties ?

First, "apart from the ball bearings" is a probably a significant cost factor right there, and I think the stop pin, bearings and related blade machining all qualify as "intricate." Apart from that, when you look at the street price that runs around $240-250, and consider the quality of design, materials and workmanship, I think it's not only not expensive but a very good value for the price. :spyder:

[Onionman]

On the one hand, the fact that it is made in Taiwan would make me think that it should be a bit cheaper. Especially when you have knives like the Dpx Hest 2.0 made in Italy with German D2 steel, a titanium / G-10 handle and RotoBlock technology selling for about $175.

On the other hand, its Spyderco's first flipper that has long been requested by Spyderco enthusiasts like myself, and I would imagine that more time and effort was put into this new design than with other current Spyderco designs that have a track record of success. Sal doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would take the development of a new design lightly, so I would imagine that the time and effort put into this piece was substantial and would understandably be incorporated into the price. (I still need to get one of these, but everything I hear about the Southard makes me believe this assessment is correct).

Either way, my brother lives in Denver and works in Golden, so I will let you guys know if he sees Sal driving around in some hot, new, fancy car anytime soon.

[markg]

I don't see this as a Spyderco specific question but an industry wide issue. Been in this knife game for many years, and it is a tough time for the knife collector and enthusiasts. On one hand we have a poor economy where money and wealth is just being sucked out of the average household. The amount of money you have to devote to the hobby is increasingly limited. All the while the cost of making the knives is increasing, and the types of knives companies are making is getting more up scale and expensive. The uber popular Ti frame lock (RIL) flipper with premium steel and exotic bearing system is all the rage, and it will hit the streets at $250 plus. I remember 5 years ago, $150 would have been insanely expensive. In previous generations, the trend was to see costs increase along with increases in wages. Today the opposite is true. Wages are going down while costs are going up. Add to this the annoying trend of knife companies to go to various pricing/dealer policies that have in some cases doubled the street prices of their knives. And with this, many companies have gone to dealer direct sales, and with that, you can forget about getting any good deals on eBay or Amazon as the large distributors have been cut out of the picture. To Spyderco's credit they have not done this, and you should thank your lucky stars they have not, because if they did you could forget about good deals on great knives...

And people wonder what drove me to be a Cold Steel fan? I just can't afford to buy anything else anymore.

[Minibear453]

Or.... maybe the Szabo is just too cheap! :D I haven't had the opportunity to handle much of these expensive Spydercos, much less own, but my Navaja's lock up and fit and finish were nearly perfect. Only things were the scratches on the bolsters and a slightly dull tip. After I repolished the bolsters and sharpened the knife, it was perfect. The fit and finish was perfect, backspacer nearly indistinguishable from the liners, the bolsters were flawlessly joined to the CF scales, and the blade had zero movement when locked open. I don't have enough experience to make this statement, but to me, the knife was just as well made as other companies' more expensive knives.

I haven't seen the southard yet, but the Szabo had great lock up as well. Fit and finish, from my cursory review, was perfect, aside from a slight bump on the side of the scales. Other companies would charge a lot more for their products, and while they may have better tolerances, I can't feel it and take advantage of it. :o

[Blerv]

I'm not a huge lockback fan but FRN knives of that variety are dang cheap and will remain to be my favorite despite the latest and greatest.

In efforts for a product to be viable the profit margin has to make sense. Spyderco seems of the mind they just increase price to allow production. If they were more pragmatic half the "interesting" models, sprints, exotic steels, and collaborations would never see production. Reverse S blade shapes and serrations would likely cease to exists or be scarce solely for the novelty. We would be drilled with boring drop-points on the flagship model line or hype-driven marketing of Michael Janich fighting a zombie T-Rex with a Yojimbo2 in one hand and a Monster Energy Drink in the other.

IMHO, let the expensive knives thrive and folks enjoy them. I appreciate an unlined FRN knife when they decide to make one. Not everyone can be this boring.

[shimage]

I don't know. When I first saw the features in the knife, I thought it was going to be expensive. As in, substantially more expensive than the techno. That G10 piece for overtravel prevention had to cost something in design work and manufacturing time. There's that fat Ti liner on the G10 side that's drilled out (Ti is no fun to machine). The ball-bearings must add complexity to the machining (again, in those fat Ti handles). There's that wonky stop pin, too. And yes, collaborations tend to cost more just on account of the licensing fees. Why would you expect all that to cost less than the Ti Military?

[sharpguitarist]

Hey guys,
The Southard is the most expensive knife I've ever purchased.
Before I ordered it, I struggled to justify spending so much on a knife.
As soon as I hit the purchase button, I thought I had made a bonehead move.
Five days later, all my fears were put at ease.
The Southard is worth every penny I paid. The fit and finish is perfect! And it's the nicest knife I will probably ever own. Well, maybe......ha!
Could the added cost be due to shipping costs of sending the CTS-204P steel overseas to Taiwan? Just a thought.
It is a lot of money to spend, but if your willing to take the plunge, you won't be disappointed.
Later,
Don

[jtoler_9]

I don't have any complaint about the MSRP of the Southard. I do think some dealers are overpriced though. Sure I would like to see every knife cheaper. Value is certainly to subjective to quantify. If the price on the Southard helps Spyderco keep the lights on when they are churning out the good ol S30V para 2 for aprox $98.00 street, then keep it up.

[Jay_Ev]

First, "apart from the ball bearings" is a probably a significant cost factor right there, and I think the stop pin, bearings and related blade machining all qualify as "intricate." Apart from that, when you look at the street price that runs around $240-250, and consider the quality of design, materials and workmanship, I think it's not only not expensive but a very good value for the price. :spyder:

FWIW, there was recently a pic of a disassembled Szabo floating around and the internals of that thing are just as intricate, if not more so. The Sazbo also has quality of design, materials and workmanship at a good $80+ less.

[PatCatMan]

I must agree OnionMan - made in Taiwan should and could bring the price down.
I wanted this knife bad - but the price just blew it out for me personally.

Marketing 101 - "Price it as high as the market will allow, then add 10%" - we all begged for it, so they knew somewhat of an opportunity market.

I guess this one just wasn't meant to be for me. The Sage 2 is as high as I'm going to go for Taiwan Spydie - that's just me.
Another hobby might be in order for me if this is the trend - just can't feed it.
Pat

[bh49]

I don't have any complaint about the MSRP of the Southard. I do think some dealers are overpriced though.

For some reasons I feel just opposite. Most of the dealers, which I use sell them around 60% of MSRP give or take. But $400 MSRP looks a little high to compare with $325 MSRP for ZT561.

[Blerv]

I must agree OnionMan - made in Taiwan should and could bring the price down.

It does. It would cost more assembled anywhere else but China.

People can either trust that a knife actually costs more to make hence the higher price tag or that it doesn't. I honestly don't think a low-volume collaboration is the best tool for trickery though...being that most of them have a life expectancy of 1-2 years.

[gbelleh]

I shopped around and paid $222 shipped for my Southard. Given the materials and fit & finish, it seems like a pretty good price to me.

[JNewell]

FWIW, there was recently a pic of a disassembled Szabo floating around and the internals of that thing are just as intricate, if not more so. The Sazbo also has quality of design, materials and workmanship at a good $80+ less.

I've seen those. At the end of the day, it's a compression lock, which has years of design and manufacturing knowledge behind it. The Southard is an almost entirely new venture for Spyderco, and it's unrealistic to think that doesn't get reflected in production costs.