xceptnl wrote:I must be mistaken, but the A.G. Russell Ti framelocks that I have seen were either Chinese made with VG-10 for over $150 or USA made with ZDP (much more comparable to CTS-204P) for $275+. This seems to be right inline with the Spyderco pricing.
I have had mine for a few weeks now and I think the $230 I paid for it was worth it. Compared to some of the other manufacturers like ZT and such, the Southard seems to be in a competitive range. It is a well designed and well finished knife. The first thing that I made note of was how every edge was smooth and rounded. Even the inside edges on the liners were smooth. A lot of attention to detail is present on this knife with the exception of the clip which everyone has remarked upon already.
Delica 4 FFG
Paramilitary 2 DLC Digicam
Brad Southard flipper (missing in action)
Sharpmaker
Gayle Bradley 2.
Gayle Bradley Air
Seems to me the knives that come from Spyderco's Taichung, Taiwan always have premium materials, and the best fit an finish of the company. Not knocking the other's but there lineup coming from there is more top tier than not. Any hint that its a discount factory is lost on me completely. They produce the knives daily that if they came from Golden they'd be sprint runs (material/steel wise). Taiwan also seems to get ton's of collaboration knives where if you not getting a custom at least your getting something exactly to spec.
I like the comparison with the USA built zt0560 because there a thread on BF right now where more people pick the Southard despite its origin. An the 056x has had like 3 or 4 revisions on the Ti side to get the lockup right its pretty well documented... You don't see threads saying the Southard has blade play.
I also don't see it mentioned much how amazing the stonewash on the Southard is.. how many spyderco's do you own that don't show fingerprints on the blade (or grind lines), and that dark wash on the Ti scales rivals the Hinderer's perfect stonewashing to me. It's so good its made me consider sending out other knives to get the treatment.
Endura I (First Spydie)
Tenacious (Work)
Para2, Strech II (EDCs)
The Southard is certainly expensive. IMO, It's in no way "over priced" for the design and quality. It's a first rate knife whose quality and performance doesn't translate very well on paper. It needs to be held, used, opened and closed, sharpened and used again to really get it.
I'm as poor as anyone else around. I had to sell stuff to get one. I'm glad that worked out and barring some catastrophe I'd like to keep it forever. Yes, I'm impressed! I don't feel that way about any Sebenza made even if I found one NIB at the same price as the Southard.
Joe
Joe
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
GTP2K1 wrote:Seems to me the knives that come from Spyderco's Taichung, Taiwan always have premium materials, and the best fit an finish of the company. Not knocking the other's but there lineup coming from there is more top tier than not. Any hint that its a discount factory is lost on me completely. They produce the knives daily that if they came from Golden they'd be sprint runs (material/steel wise). Taiwan also seems to get ton's of collaboration knives where if you not getting a custom at least your getting something exactly to spec.
I like the comparison with the USA built zt0560 because there a thread on BF right now where more people pick the Southard despite its origin. An the 056x has had like 3 or 4 revisions on the Ti side to get the lockup right its pretty well documented... You don't see threads saying the Southard has blade play.
I also don't see it mentioned much how amazing the stonewash on the Southard is.. how many spyderco's do you own that don't show fingerprints on the blade (or grind lines), and that dark wash on the Ti scales rivals the Hinderer's perfect stonewashing to me. It's so good its made me consider sending out other knives to get the treatment.
I think the first paragraph of your response is right on the mark. Two things irk me about the idea that the Southard is over-priced. One is the idea that Taiwan knives should be "discount knives." Although many makers make their discount lines in Taiwan, Spyderco's production in Taichung seems to me to be more akin to their production in Seki City. Essentially, Taiwan has reached the point, from a manufacturing perspective, that, while their work can still be done cheaper than here, they have the ability to do top notch work. The work that the guys in Taichung are doing for Spyderco puts any other knife I've ever handled to shame. My second irritant is the inaccurate view of cost regarding Taichung knives within the Spyderco line-up. CTS-204P is not a local steel for the Taiwan factories. And I'd be willing to bet the Titanium and G-10 that go into the Southard don't originate in Taiwan either. The cost of sending the materials to have these knives made to Taiwan isn't cheap and is a factor in the price of these knives. That's something to consider in the Taichung knives.
I personally own both the Spyderco Southard and a ZT 0560. I find the Southard to be the superior knife. That's saying a lot as I love my ZT. The thing that sets the Southard apart in that arena is the flipper action. The Southard just opens smoother, easier, and with less force than it takes to open the ZT. Also, the Southard manages to pack nearly the same amount of blade into a much more compact package, which is almost always a good thing IMO.
"A flute with no holes is not a flute. A donut with no hole, is a danish."
The blind tang comparison should be used more often. The only thing that holds one person back from achieving the level of another is training. We all have similar tools and most have the same number of fingers.
If the quality is there the place of origin should be irrelevant. Not to get political (a great way to start a sentence :p ), but competition is what paved the automotive wars in the mid 20th century. Who made the most unique product at the highest quality and the lowest sticker; ie "value".
If the Southard is truly what people say it is (I don't have one), and they are buying it gladly, how do you set a price? Luckily Spyderco uses a relatively flat profit margin. That means the Southard costs more money because it costs more to make; The Para2 despite demand is very affordable. It's a better system that way...trust me.
Blerv wrote:The blind tang comparison should be used more often. The only thing that holds one person back from achieving the level of another is training. We all have similar tools and most have the same number of fingers.
If the quality is there the place of origin should be irrelevant. Not to get political (a great way to start a sentence :p ), but competition is what paved the automotive wars in the mid 20th century. Who made the most unique product at the highest quality and the lowest sticker; ie "value".
If the Southard is truly what people say it is (I don't have one), and they are buying it gladly, how do you set a price? Luckily Spyderco uses a relatively flat profit margin. That means the Southard costs more money because it costs more to make; The Para2 despite demand is very affordable. It's a better system that way...trust me.
Two minor footnotes on this thread. I think Joe's great post can be summed up in two words: "great value"
An even more minor footnote to Blake's post is that I think Sal has posted that the P2 and M2 are exceptions to the general Spyderco pricing and have reduced margins to Spyderco - making them somewhat less expensive at MSRP relative to Spyderco's total cost than the rest of the line.
