Anyone use the Edge Pro from start to finish on an edge?

[jackknifeh]

I've had an EP Apex for about 3 years I think. I've used it for all reprofiling and getting an edge very sharp. Then I would switch to free-hand stropping after the stones. EP has the tapes that are capable of replacing stropping according to Ben Dale (inventor). They work well if you really get used to them I'm sure. I have played with them enough to find I didn't really care for them. First, you have to buy them continuously. That's a major drawback. It's easy to accidentally cut the strips is another complaint I have. That of course is my fault, not the tool's fault. I've had the same problem with leather strops for the EP. Also, softer leather strops seem to negate the importance of the EP's angle accurace due to the leather "wrapping" around the edge. Then for touch-ups I would use fine grit bench stones and/or strops both. So, after getting a "complete" sharpening system I still wasn't using it completely. I felt more comfortable using free-hand methods for the finishing touches on an edge. This could be due to a number of factors. Maybe I regressed to my old methods because I was used to them and didn't take time to learn how to get the same results using the EP (probable). Maybe the EP isn't capable of getting the same results as using free-hand methods (very doubtful). This is something that has bothered me for a long time.

Then I got a balsa strop for the EP. Treat it with any abrasive you want. Since it is harder than leather I like it a lot more when stropping on the EP. First, you don't have to buy them again and again. Second, it's much easier to NOT cut or damage the strop. If you do you can sand the wood flat again. Can't do that with leather. OTOH, leather can have a few nicks and cuts in it and it is still usable. You don't have to throw it away. Third, since the balsa is harder and won't "wrap" around the edge like leather can it's very effective when wanting to maintain the same angle as you created with stones. This is a MAJOR MAJOR benefit IMO. Actually, the most important issue when using an EP since maintaining a consistant angle is the EP's main feature.

Now, I'm begining to find I can go through reprofiling and final edge refinement using only the EP. Different stones have helped also. I have two Shapton Glass stones (2k & 6k). The 2k will leave a fairly toothy edge with a nice finish on the bevel. The 6k smooths the edge and gets pretty close to a mirror finish. I do want the 8k and/or 16k for a better finish though not to mention how it will do on the edge. These guys are getting expensive though which brings up the financial aspect. For all the money a sharpening system can cost, then needing to also use other tools was another thing that bugged me (a lot). It also may be easier to whip out a stone or strop for a quick touch up. That's what I've normally done. After doing this a few times I've found I need to do more work to "re-create" the edge angle with the EP. Especially with small edge bevels and micro-bevels. I thought if the EP is used all the time this would be eliminated. I do need to keep a record of the angle I use though. Very small edge bevels are harder to find with the EP by using a marker. It's not hard with wide bevels but we shouldn't need to change them very often at all. I keep notes like on my Sage4 the back bevel is 13° per side and 18° per side. This way I don't need to "find" the angles for different knives.

The thing that got me motivated to try using the EP for perfecting the sharpness is because I now want my edges sharper than I've been getting them. I want them to slice the tomato skin just by laying the edge on the tomato like a couple of videos I've seen. Maybe a TINY slicing motion but you guys know what mean. Just sharper. :) Since the EP is more accurate with angle consistancy it should be more accurate for all aspects of sharpening (I hope).

Anyway, this is the learning curve I'm going through now and was wondering how many of you EP users use it for a complete sharpening. I'd also ask the same questions to the Wicked Edge users since the same situation may apply to some of you guys.

Jack

[.357 mag]

I used to finish on the EP til I started freehand. The EP can produce a great edge. Better than what I can freehand. Freehand is just easier for touchups than getting the EP out.

[Bert T]

Jack, I know you are experienced enough to know this, but do not forget that some metals will not sharpen as "sharp" as other metals.

Bert

[jackknifeh]

Jack, I know you are experienced enough to know this, but do not forget that some metals will not sharpen as "sharp" as other metals.

Bert

That's true. NOTHING gets as sharp as a gas station cash register knife. :) Nothing like one of those knife edges after some .25 micron diamond spray stropping. :D

[Evil D]

I pretty much only use the EP. I have an assortment of leather strops, but i have yet to really put them to good use and see their benefit. Part of that is just getting more consistent with my technique. My usual method of edge touch ups on the EP is to raise the angle just slightly (like 1-2 degrees) and hit it with the tapes if the edge has no chips. If it's chipped i'll usually go with the 600 strone at the same angle. Lately i've been getting more away from going all out with polished bevels and sticking with a 600 grit edge. I've found that the edge does indeed seem to last longer which really makes a difference with S30V. Even after using the 600 stone i'll usually put one of the tapes on and do a few really light strokes (usually done 1-2 degrees over the main bevel) which IMO is essentially stropping the edge as i don't feel it does enough to classify as a micro bevel. I've found that the 600 grit edge combined with the 3k tape "stropping" makes for a ridiculously sharp edge that seems to last a bit longer than a fully polished 3k edge. One thing i do to make using the EP faster is, when i set a knife up and set the table stop where i want it for that particular knife, I score a line behind it on the plastic part of the table so when i switch between knives i can just move it to that line and it's set up and ready to go and I'll always sharpen with the knife at the same place on the table this way.

[jackknifeh]

I pretty much only use the EP. I have an assortment of leather strops, but i have yet to really put them to good use and see their benefit. Part of that is just getting more consistent with my technique. My usual method of edge touch ups on the EP is to raise the angle just slightly (like 1-2 degrees) and hit it with the tapes if the edge has no chips. If it's chipped i'll usually go with the 600 strone at the same angle. Lately i've been getting more away from going all out with polished bevels and sticking with a 600 grit edge. I've found that the edge does indeed seem to last longer which really makes a difference with S30V. Even after using the 600 stone i'll usually put one of the tapes on and do a few really light strokes (usually done 1-2 degrees over the main bevel) which IMO is essentially stropping the edge as i don't feel it does enough to classify as a micro bevel. I've found that the 600 grit edge combined with the 3k tape "stropping" makes for a ridiculously sharp edge that seems to last a bit longer than a fully polished 3k edge. One thing i do to make using the EP faster is, when i set a knife up and set the table stop where i want it for that particular knife, I score a line behind it on the plastic part of the table so when i switch between knives i can just move it to that line and it's set up and ready to go and I'll always sharpen with the knife at the same place on the table this way.

I like your strategy of a final touch with a tape at a slightly higher angle. In the past week or so I haven't touched an edge unless it was on the EP. I will try your final touch method. I have done that once or twice but never really paid much attention to the results. One reason I always touched up an edge with a bench stone or strop is even the finest stones I had for the EP seemed to remove more steel than needed for a very light touch up. Now that I have a couple of Shapton Glass stones and a balsa strop I'm barely removing any steel and am getting great results. Another thread started by dbcad got me thinking about how sharp I can get different steels. So this evening I took 4 knives and tried to get them as sharp as I could. The knives had M4, ZDP, S30V and VG-10. They were already very sharp so I just used the 6k Shapton glass stone followed by a balsa strop with 1 micron Boron Carbide semi-paste. All 4 steels cut phone book paper VERY cleanly. The ZDP didn't get quite as sharp as the others but I spent about equal time on each knife. We know ZDP takes longer so I'll work on it a little more. I have had ZDP sharper so I know the steel is capable.

Anyway, what I'm finding is what I hoped to find. The EP will do the entire job if I have super fine stones/strops so I can do many strokes and still not remove a lot of steel, just enough. I didnt even raise a burr worth mentioning on the knives this evening. Just a very small one. I also ordered a nano-cloth strop for the EP and some .25 micron diamond spray. Hopefully they will make a very sharp finished edge. Will it be sharp enough for my new desire? God, I hope so. :D I ordered the 500 grit Shapton glass stone also to give me a coarser SG stone for a set of 3 stones now. I truely think I will have enough sharpening stuff for a long while. I haven't bought a knife in quite a while and I think it's time. :) The only problem is people who sell knives want money. :) What nerve? :D


Jack

[Evil D]

I came to the realization that the reason i believe(d) that the higher polished edges were sharper was that i wasn't spending enough time refinding the toothier edges and/or was leaving a burr so small i couldn't tell it was there, which was leading to fast edge loss. I think this is a big part of why people believe S30V loses the hair popping edge quickly, because from what i've seen it lasts much longer when sharpened the way i'm sharpening...at least as long as VG10 does which is typically regarded as lasting longer than S30V does. I noticed a huge difference in the edge i'm left with when i polish it all the way out using the tapes vs. 600 grit and using the tapes to lightly strop the very edge. With the polished edge, the hair popping part is gone within one cut through cardboard, but the 600 edge lasts quite a bit longer. The best part is, since you're not using the tapes to fully polish out the entire bevel, they last a LOT longer. I only use the weight of the tape blank on the edge and only make a few passes per side, but it's enough that any trace of burr is removed without fully polishing out the toothiness that the 600 stone gives. My next big purchase will likely be some of those Shapton glass stones though as i think you can get the same result i'm getting with those and they'll last the rest of your life.

[jackknifeh]

I agree with you Evil about the 600 grit leaving a better performing edge for EDC knives. The reading I've been doing about getting the ultimately sharper edges on knives is dealing primarily with kitchen cutlery and knives. I am NOT a chef. I cant even call myself a cook. :) I doubt if there is a good kitchen knife used by a real chef that goes through the cutting demands most of our EDC knives do. When I think of kitchen knives I think of cutting vegetables and meat on a cutting board that doesn't ruin the edge. Glass cutting boards and the like destroy edges. Since the cutting in a kitchen is a different environment than most EDC folding knives see a different sharpening strategy is appropriate. One video I saw demonstrating a sharp kitchen knife was using the weight of a knife to cut through the skin of a tomato with no slicing movement. Its possible that unbelieveably sharp edge would be gone after one cut through an average piece of cardboard.

Since I got the Shapton stones and Boron Carbide for strops I've found it easier and faster to take a very sharp edge to the next level. The Shaptons are the first stones I've used that I consider to be "high-quality" stones on the EP. I mounted Spyderco's 5" ceramic stones on EP blanks and am very happy with them. I haven't used them in a while though. I need to try them again. The fine grit Spyderco stone does put a VERY nice edge on a knife. The UF grit doesn't come in a size that can be used on the EP. I can take a knife that I had already considered very sharp (IMO) and use the 6k Shapton and BC on a balsa strop and suddenly the edge will cut better at the tests I normally use (slicing phone book paper and shaving arm). After the balsa strop the edge will shave my arm completely clean easily with one pass. I have gotten knives this sharp before but it seems like I had to put a little extra effort into it. With the better tools I'm getting better results immediately so I don't think the results can be credited to my skill improving.

Then the type of steel of course will be a big factor when going for really really super razor stupid sharp edges. This is where my experience is VERY limited. The steel used on the kitchen knives I've been reading about people sharpening are very good quality knives. This is where Spyderco deserves credit for using better quality steels and a larger variety than most other production knife companies. I appreciate Spyderco's eagerness to try different steels. I believe most companies will just stick with what works best all the time. Nothing wrong with that. There are companies that make nice knives without the variety of blade steels to choose from on the same model knife. Spyderco seems to excell in this area. Without even trying I can name 5 steels my limited set of Spyderco knives have. There are several others being used presently as well. The next one I want to try is XHP. Problem is I've spent so much money on sharpening products I don't have money to buy knives to sharpen. Funny, Isn't it. :)

Here comes the "but". :) But, are the edges that people want on their high quality kitchen knives the best performing edges in an EDC knife world? Maybe not. The blade steels Spyderco uses seems to be capable of taking the super sharp edges and holding it in the correct environment. Wanting to gey my Spydercos sharper than ever before is just for fun really. I've never felt like they weren't already getting sharp enoug to do the work required of them. :)

That's enough rambling for one post I think.

Except for this. I'm formally thanking everyone who has helped me develope sharpening skills that I never knew were possible a few years ago. 99% of those people are here on the Spyderco forum. I won't name names because the list is long enough that I'm sure to forget someone and I don't want to accidentally leave anyone off a list.


Jack

[jackknifeh]

Final (yeah right! :) ) feelings on using the EP, start to finish with no free-hand touch ups, stropping, etc.

Most importantly, these are my opinions which are sometimes flawed and get changed over time.

I'll try to comment on the different aspects of sharpening.

USING STONES
REPROFILING: For me the EP is far better at reprofiling a knife edge in speed and angle accuracy.

SHARPNESS: The EP is more than capable of getting the edge just as sharp as the free-hand method Any difference will be due to the skill of the sharpener (person) with each method.

MULTIPLE BEVEL ANGLES: When you want to use a back bevel, edge, bevel, micro bevel, etc. the EP shines in accuracy compared to free-hand. After putting a back bevel of 24 deg, an edge bevel of 34 deg, and a micro bevel of 40 deg, you can see very different, very flat changes where the angles change. Free-hand will always result in what would appear more as a convex edge.

POLISHING (MIRROR FINISH): EP is very capable of this as long as the stone/strop is of a grit fine enough. Of course that's true of free-hand as well. I have never been able to get a mirror finish with stones until I got the Shapton glass stones. My 6k (finest I have) stone leaves each bevel VERY close to mirror finish. The 8k has been reported by Madrookie and others as producing a mirror finish and I believe it after seeing what the 6k does. The 8k Shapton glass stone my be in my future. :)

STROPS:
REPROFILING: haha :)

SHARPNESS AND MULTI ANGLE BEVELS: Leather trops are very easy to damage IMO using the EP. I tend to get into a rhythm and cut a leather strop due to poor attention to what I'm doing. If I take a little more time to place and remove the strop from the edge this is not a concern. Balsa wood strops are a lot harder to damage (but possible). Due to the harder texture of balsa over leather a balsa strop can be set on the EP to match the bevel angle perfectly, eliminating rounding off the angles. This makes it possible to refine the sharpness withoug rounding off the edge like you can with a leather (softer) strop. Using the EP, softer strops make the accuracy of the EP non-existant. Using too much pressure you will round off the bevels and/or dull the edge. Again, this is a concern with free-hand as well.

Until my desire to put the EP to the test I would always use free-hand for the final aspects of all of the above subjects. This was due to two things. One is I didn't have the stones and strops good enough (for lack of a better term) to do the job. Now that I'm using Shapton glass stones and balsa wood strops I'm using tools that complete the EP's capabilities. My opinion only of course. The second reason to switch to free-hand for final touches and in-between touch ups is it is much easier to grab a stone or strop for a few strokes than to get the EP, figure out the correct angle and set the EP to it, etc. This seems to be the opinion of others also. I believe the EP is the tool to use for all aspects of sharpening as long as you also have the capable stones and strops. The EP is not the only tool in the world that is capable of this. It's just the only one I have used.

If you have read this far I hope some have gotten an understanding of the EP and free-hand methods. Don't forget though, I'm not very good at free-hand sharpening and I am good at using the EP. Due to that my opinion will be biased.

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