New member and issues with ZDP-189

[tonijedi]

Hi guys, I'm a new member here. My name is António and I'm from Portugal. I'm a Spyderco fan and on the last couple of years I managed to get quite a lot of Spyderco folders.

This first post is addressing something that is bugging me for a while: ZDP-189's performance. I have 2 Delicas in ZDP-189, one straight edge and one fully serrated. I don't use much the fully serrated one, but the straight edged one has seen a fair amount of use. On the first times I used it it seemed to be like the VG-10 versions, but with use I learnt the differences. The big issue here, is that I find the steel to be way worst than VG-10, and it supposed to be the opposite. I don't find anything on it that makes it better than VG-10. It chipped when I was cutting cardboard, and the chip was not a micro chip. That happened on the beginning and now, and nowadays, 1 year later and some sharpening done, the chip is still there. I noticed it micro-chiped easily when performing normal tasks. As an example, this last weekend I went camping and I cut some birch bark with it, nothing too serious. I was chocked to notice, again, micro-shiping near the tip end of the blade. :eek:
Is this normal? :confused:

I'm a huge Spyderco fan, son't get me wrong for raising this issue on my first post, and thank you for this community!

[Blerv]

Welcome to the forums! :)

There are few "worse" and far more "different"s in the world of blade steels. ZDP-189 is far harder than VG10 and for that reason takes a thin edge and holds it for a long time. For many activities, like whittling wood, a tougher blade steel may be desirable. While VG10 isn't tough, it's definitely tougher. Especially when lateral loads are put on the edge.

[Evil D]

It isn't a steel that's suited for all uses or all people. Personally i wouldn't choose ZDP as an EDC steel if cardboard and camping are in your usual uses for a knife. "Better" is highly subjective. Some people will say that the extra effort it takes to sharpen ZDP vs. VG10 is enough to say that VG10 is the better steel, because that's what they want out of their knife. Other people who have a lighter duty EDC routine will tell you that ZDP is the better steel because they can use it without chipping and the edge will last vastly (VASTLY) longer than VG10 could ever dream of lasting. What you need to consider is, do you have the right steel for the job? Another thing to consider is that VG10 will roll and be so dull it won't cut anything, while even chipped ZDP will still cut when you need it to (unless you just mangle the crap out of the edge).

What angle are you sharpening at? Have you considered using a micro bevel? What are you using to sharpen with? Maybe for the jobs you use a knife for, stepping up the bevel angle a bit and using a micro bevel will resolve some of the chipping issues and make you happier with the knife. I know personally it was a hard pill to swallow, but these high end super hard steels just don't work very well for my EDC needs.

[tonijedi]

Thanks for the answers guys. I use the sharpmaker at 40 degrees. Almost all of my knives are sharpened that way, so I have a big base for comparison. And you can't say 40 degrees is a thin edge... it seems I have to swallow that pill too Evil D, because according to my experiences (and I own this knife for more than 1 year) I couldn't find any advantage in ZDP-189. But well, maybe one day I'll find a situation where I will appreciate better ZDP-189.

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't find anything on it that makes it better than VG-10. It chipped when I was cutting cardboard, and the chip was not a micro chip. That happened on the beginning and now, and nowadays, 1 year later and some sharpening done, the chip is still there. I noticed it micro-chiped easily when performing normal tasks. As an example, this last weekend I went camping and I cut some birch bark with it, nothing too serious. I was chocked to notice, again, micro-shiping near the tip end of the blade.

No it isn't normal for the knife to chip on cardboard or birch bark, however it is normal for cardboard and birch bark to have inclusions which can damage a knife. It also isn't that uncommon to damage a blade and then only spot it later so it often isn't always the last thing you cut that damaged the blade.

[Evil D]

Thanks for the answers guys. I use the sharpmaker at 40 degrees. Almost all of my knives are sharpened that way, so I have a big base for comparison. And you can't say 40 degrees is a thin edge... it seems I have to swallow that pill too Evil D, because according to my experiences (and I own this knife for more than 1 year) I couldn't find any advantage in ZDP-189. But well, maybe one day I'll find a situation where I will appreciate better ZDP-189.

One big mistake i made when dealing with ZDP early on, and this eventually made me a better sharpener because of it...is making absolutely sure you've removed all traces of a burr when sharpening. This is especially important with ZDP because that burr will chip off with the first cut and there goes your edge and on go the chips. I have let my son use my ZDP Delica to whittle wood, and that knife is ~20-25 degrees inclusive, and i haven't had any issues with it chipping, but i do put on a 30 degree micro bevel and strop it afterwards so there's no trace of a burr, and my son (9 years old) doesn't have the most delicate touch...he pretty much manhandles the thing. Still, 40 inclusive should be plenty low enough to avoid chipping, so long as you're not cutting anything really hard (like zip ties) and you're certain you didn't leave a burr. I have a special respect for ZDP because it really taught me the primary lessons about sharpening that i had never had to deal with when sharpening softer steels like VG10.


Oh, and i should note that my thoughts on not using super hard steels for EDC have more to do with the fact that i too have gorilla fingers and i manhandle my knife, and chips are something that make my OCD go crazy so i found that despite the superior edge holding ability of 20CP, i ended up sharpening my knife more often than i did S30V because i was constantly removing those chips. I've since found some micro bevel techniques that all but eliminate the chipping issue.

[Blerv]

ZDP189 is a 911 GT2. VG10 is a SLK63 AMG.

Both are fast. The one that is more comfortable to commute in isn't "better" unless that's the priority.

[sal]

Hi Tonijedi,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum.

Sorry for your disappointment. It sounds like you have an earlier model. If it's really a problem, we would have to get the knife in our lab to see if there is a problem with the heat treat.

sal

[tonijedi]

Thank you very much Sal for your offer. As I live on the other side of the planet, I don't think I'll do it for now. The blade is not breaking apart, but the micro-chiping is recurrent when I use the knife for a little bit heavier tasks than cutting paper (like I mentioned first, birch bark, cardboard, food preparation...)

The Delica is my favorite folder, so far I just have 7 of them. When the economy gets better maybe I'll pick a combo edge in ZDP-189 so I'll compare it to my actual ZDP-189 plain edged Delica.

[sal]

We no longer make any ZDP knives with teeth.

sal

[jackknifeh]

We no longer make any ZDP knives with teeth.

sal

That's why ZDP doesn't cut as good as it used to. No teeth, just gums. :)

I'm kidding. I have a ZDP Manbug that I love and it holds an edge much longer than VG-10 including cutting trash cardboard. Now, I'm thinking about a ZDP D'fly. I have had ZDP blades that didn't seem to do as well as others but I can't explain that. Possibly my expectation when I first bought the steel was too high.

Jack

[Slash]

I had the first solid zdp Spyderco introduced.
Yes, it did microchip easily. I suspected a problem with heat treat and decided to pass that along for someone else to deal with.

[Blerv]

If I was a huge issue I would think some type an announcement would be made. Given there are plenty with serrated ZDP who wish they bought spares I have to think it was a small change.

ZDP is always going to fairly brittle amongst blade steels. It's high hardness and stainless.

[jackknifeh]

I had the first solid zdp Spyderco introduced.
Yes, it did microchip easily. I suspected a problem with heat treat and decided to pass that along for someone else to deal with.

That's interesting. I haven't bought a ZDP knife in about 2 years. Then I got the ZDP Manbug in May and have been more than happy with the ZDP's performance. No more micro chipping than most other steels I use. And the edge retention is far better than any ZDP knife I've owned in the past. I can't explain it of course, I just know what I see. If I had no info from any place, just the experience I've had with the ZDP I've owned I'd say the steel has been improved. If the steel wasn't stamped on the tang I'd think the blade was a different steel based on performance. However, SO MANY people have reported the performance in their ZDP that I am epxeriencing in my Manbug now that I don't think my experience was the norm (in the past). Now I am much more apt to get another ZDP-189 knife. I never would NOT buy a knife because it had ZDP but I didn't think the steel was worth paying any extra for so I'd get the VG-10 D'fly instead of the ZDP D'fly I am considering now. If I get the D'fly, I'll get the ZDP model and hope I get the same performance I'm getting from my Manbug. :) Then I will be very :D .

Jack

[chuck_roxas45]

I kinda like ZDP for how long it holds an edge and for the edge stability at thin angles. I say kinda because it's not really a preferred steel for me mainly because I like to maintain my edges with strops. Now my experience with other steels, including 20CP is that I can make mistakes on stropping and can still get it back sharp with just the strops. I can't do that with ZDP. When I make mistakes on the strop with ZDP, I have to go back to the stones.

[Fancier]

I have a saber ground delica in ZDP-189 and I wasn't impressed with the edge durability of it until I had sharpened it many times. Eventually it settled into being a knife that I could use to reduce cardboard boxes without frequent sharpening, and in fact it became my first knife that I could use for box reduction for a couple of days without seeing damage to the edge under a bright light. My feeling is that the original edge was chipping and after wearing it down for a while I found some more durable steel underneath. I have since thinned the bevel a bit and it performs better than ever without chipping problems.

[dbcad]

I have a saber ground delica in ZDP-189 and I wasn't impressed with the edge durability of it until I had sharpened it many times. Eventually it settled into being a knife that I could use to reduce cardboard boxes without frequent sharpening, and in fact it became my first knife that I could use for box reduction for a couple of days without seeing damage to the edge under a bright light. My feeling is that the original edge was chipping and after wearing it down for a while I found some more durable steel underneath. I have since thinned the bevel a bit and it performs better than ever without chipping problems.

Cliff Stamp has mentioned this phenoma in quite a few of his posts. Once you get past the metal that has been compromised by production power tool sharpening you hit the good stuff :) I'm lucky I had to reprofile my ZDP D'Fly intially, It taught me how treat the stuff as well as getting me through the compromised material :) The D'Fly has been used a bit since then and keeps the edge very well :D

It would be interesting to try and measure the perfomance of a production sharpened edge vs a seasoned edge.??

[tonijedi]

I'm going to keep it sharp and see if the performance improves over time.
So I think I have a rare Delica, because I have a ZDP spyderedge!
Thanks everyone for the inputs.