Question I hope sal or someone will answer.

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Chipped Karambit
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Question I hope sal or someone will answer.

Postby Chipped Karambit » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:39 pm

Is there hope of a K294 or 10V blade in the future??
Like a sprint run of the paramilitary 2 (not saying that because I like the pm2 [it helps though] but because of the edge geometry that can be achieved) or a Gayle Bradley with a compression lock?
I say compression lock because I would fear putting my hand in the path of the closing blade with those types of steels.

Or maybe (Here is the bombshell) a 4.5 inch Outdoors/cooking Folder that feels like a fixed blade when locked??? Not asking for a thick hunk of steel 5mm thick, but maybe 3-3.5 would be adequate. With some somewhat sharp edges or a swedge on it to use with a ferros rod.

K294 (or k390 I can't really tell the difference) and 10V haven't been used in a folder that I have seen. I know it will be maybe a bit expensive but people are willing to pay most likely. Especially since Phil Wilson has probably a 2 year waiting list (the release of the southfork probably made it 2 years by my estimate to his previous 1 year)

These steels with Spydercos knowledge of edge geometry and Taichung's capibilities with high end steels (as we see from cts lines and the 3v in the tuff)

Most people probably don't even know these steels but for the records ankerton said "K294 at 64 HRC made 1,800 slicing cuts through 5/8" Manila rope and it would still slice printer paper clean, K294 is an extremely aggressive cutter.”(http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... 1-10V-etc) )

So my question to sal is, Should I hold my breathe??

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Blerv
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Postby Blerv » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:57 pm

I recall someone saying (maybe Sal but don't quote me) that going production on a steel like 10v would cost a ton in grinding costs if done at an appropriate HT.

This year we have seen the first S90v fixed blade and the first 3v folder (non-customs). Not to sound over content or over trusting but I'm sure when they can pull off a sprint when it makes financial sense they will.

As an aside I wouldn't be any more fearful of a cut from 10v over vg10. A sharp acute edge is scary no matter what.

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Postby razorsharp » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:46 am

Theres been rumor of a k390 mule, then millie, and a s110v native - ill be sure to pick up the folders if they happen

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Postby defenestrate » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:17 am

10V is considered so difficult to machine that custom makers generally won't touch it. I could see Spyderco doing it one day, but think they'd have to engineer the wheels for working them. It would be prohibitively expensive on labor (and broken grinding surfaces) to do at present AFAIK.
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Postby kbuzbee » Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:51 am

Blerv wrote:I recall someone saying (maybe Sal but don't quote me) that going production on a steel like 10v would cost a ton in grinding costs if done at an appropriate HT.
I agree with the above statements. My guess would be "yes" but not any time soon.

I'd love to see a nice folder in K294 too but is it worth $1,500 to you? I'll wait until it can be done cost effectively. One thing I know for sure. Sal is thinking of ways to pull it off.

Ken
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Postby Ankerson » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:03 am

I believe I remember Sal saying something about a possible knife (Mule?) in K390 in the future.

Steels in this class, CPM 10V, K294, K390 and CPM S110V are very hard to work with to make knife blades out of due to the extreme wear resistance.

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Postby dbcad » Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:41 am

Blerv wrote: As an aside I wouldn't be any more fearful of a cut from 10v over vg10. A sharp acute edge is scary no matter what.
Very, very true :) If the edge is sharp the materials don't discriminate :)
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Postby sal » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:07 am

We have a K390 mule in-the-works.

The influencing factors regarding what we can / will make has little to do with how hard it might be. We have good resources in Golden as well as elsewhere. Each model / material has a certain amount of demand. If that demand is large enough to do a run of something, and we have the resources to do so, then we see if we can plan for it without hurting current demand.

sal

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Postby Chipped Karambit » Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:58 am

sal wrote:We have a K390 mule in-the-works.

The influencing factors regarding what we can / will make has little to do with how hard it might be. We have good resources in Golden aw well as elsewhere. Each model / material has a certain amount of demand. If that demand is large enough to do a run of something, and we have the resources to do so, then we see if we can plan for it without hurting current demand.

sal
Thanks! A fixed blade would be awesome as well. If I am in the country when it is released I will pick one up, if not, I will hire a secretary and make the secretary order for me and put it in my notes payable after creating a notes payable section.

Also, what is the difference between k294 and k390?

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Postby Ankerson » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:21 am

Chipped Karambit wrote:Thanks! A fixed blade would be awesome as well. If I am in the country when it is released I will pick one up, if not, I will hire a secretary and make the secretary order for me and put it in my notes payable after creating a notes payable section.

Also, what is the difference between k294 and k390?
K294 is A11 and has 10% Vanadium while K390 has slightly less Vanadium at 9% with added Cobalt (2%) and more Molybdenum (3.75%) with less Chromium and Silicon.

K390 is supposed to be slightly tougher than K294 and slightly easier to work with in the same hardness range of 63-64 HRC.

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Postby Blerv » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:22 am

Hi Sal. Thanks for clarifying policy for us further. Greatly appreciated :) .

Just for reference what do you propose msrp would look like in a Para2 platform say over the CTS-20cp run? I know you guys don't cower to price but it might help in quantifying theoreticial demand from fiscally willing demand.

No specifics needed. More along the lines of "a bit more" or "almost twice as much".

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Postby Ankerson » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:37 am

Anyone who has experience with CPM 10V and or K294 can tell you the edge retention is off the scale as in extremely high, well beyond steels like S90V.

K390 from the information I have is VERY close edge retention wise to K294 at the same hardness, haven't used it personally though.

They are very fine grained steels and will take an amazing edge and hold it for a very long time.

K294 and 10V feel like cutting with a hacksaw with a coarser edge around 400 grit or so, extremely aggressive cutters from my experience.

With K294 (64 HRC) at .010" behind the edge and 10 degrees per side I experienced no chipping issues and I really pushed the blade hard.

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sal
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Postby sal » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:04 pm

Thanx Jim.

Hi Blerv. A bit more unless the steel is very expensive to purchase or process.

sal

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Postby kbuzbee » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:07 pm

sal wrote:The influencing factors regarding what we can / will make has little to do with how hard it might be. We have good resources in Golden aw well as elsewhere.
I got a little shiver reading this. Like a tremor in the Force ;)

A K294 Native 5..... Oh Yeah!

Ken
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Postby Ankerson » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:12 pm

sal wrote:Thanx Jim.

Hi Blerv. A bit more unless the steel is very expensive to purchase or process.

sal
Hi Sal,

No problem, one of these days I have to get around to testing K390, I have access to a knife if I want to test it against my K294 knife.

As you can understand testing steels like this is just painful (literally) due to the extreme edge retention and the amount of work involved, usually days. :eek:

If only I had a CATRA machine to use I could stand back and drink coffee while it did all the work. LOL


Jim

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Jet B
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Postby Jet B » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:27 pm

Very cool news. A K390 mule sounds like a great one to pick up.

That would be one serious beast of a camp slicer.

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Chipped Karambit
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Postby Chipped Karambit » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:36 pm

Wow, I got all the gurus to chime in. Thanks people for the hope(I am going to get the mule and maybe rock Carbon Fibers on it or Micarta. Learned a lot from this. This is why I love knife communities.

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sal
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Postby sal » Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:50 pm

Ankerson wrote:Hi Sal,

No problem, one of these days I have to get around to testing K390, I have access to a knife if I want to test it against my K294 knife.

As you can understand testing steels like this is just painful (literally) due to the extreme edge retention and the amount of work involved, usually days. :eek:

If only I had a CATRA machine to use I could stand back and drink coffee while it did all the work. LOL


Jim
Hi Jim,

Actually I'm glad you use rope and cardboard to test. We have found that different steels and geometries might perform differently on different mediums as well as "real world" testing. While the CATRA is probably the most reliable testing machine available today, I like to get some variety in testing.

You've been testing the same way for a long time with many tests to you credit so you've probably got some consistency down. Sorry about the pain though.

sal

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Postby Ankerson » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:20 pm

sal wrote:Hi Jim,

Actually I'm glad you use rope and cardboard to test. We have found that different steels and geometries might perform differently on different mediums as well as "real world" testing. While the CATRA is probably the most reliable testing machine available today, I like to get some variety in testing.

You've been testing the same way for a long time with many tests to you credit so you've probably got some consistency down. Sorry about the pain though.

sal

Hi Sal,

Thanks, I have the method down pretty well by now as practiced as I am at doing it. :)

I was joking about the CATRA. :D

Just have to pace myself more on those types of steels were as I can bang out the more normal ones pretty fast.

Jim

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Postby hunterseeker5 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:51 pm

If your goal is really to go to the extreme end of the spectrum, why use 10v at a mere ~65rc? Why would you not do something more like REX 121 @ 70rc? If you like your extremes, that is the place to go. Of course in the real world scale of things I find myself a bit puzzled regarding all these extreme end knives. Granted if I spent all day breaking down boxes I might feel differently, but my outdoors/camping/etc needs seem to be a little more toward the hard use end of the spectrum. I guess when you effectively max out the wear resistance end of the scale, at least in my case, it gave me the opportunity to reflect on how I actually would like to use knives rather than simply how hard and wear resistant I could get them. Does that make sense? I don't intend to rain on your parade, i merely want to save you a few steps and lead you to the logical concluson of a mostly carbide blade that you can easily score glass with, or a different set of goals entirely.


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