Spyderco prices are pushing me right out of my hobby.

[Donut]

I proposed a lower cost Para 2 with an economy steel and everyone shot it down. =\

[bh49]

Imagine working in walk-in retail selling Spydercos.
I would love to bring the Sage 2 in to share with the local community but it retails $274.95. I want to bring in the Lionspy too to see how it sells.. Too bad it retails $499.95.
What also sickens me is seeing the online retailers selling knives a few dollars above cost. As much as I love low prices, it does take a lot of value out of the knife and hurts the remaining retail walk-in stores. But it seems this is what they have to do now to get the products to sell at a reasonable price.

I beleive that walk-in can do much better than MSRP. NGK and GPK are good examples.

I proposed a lower cost Para 2 with an economy steel and everyone shot it down. =\

And they (us) will do this again. Sorry. IMHO Para2 with street $100 is the great value, probably one of the best, if not the best, considering materials, quality, design and country of origin.

[KardinalSyn]

For me, I had an infatuation so bad that I ended up buying some Spydies before I truly found the blade that I liked. The M390 Millie has something about it that I can't really explain. After I got it though, the appeal for Spydies have receded a bit and I also cancelled my orders for the Yo2 and Delica. Why buy something when you know that you have the blade of your dreams with you. The only exception is the Tuff. I think I will buy one when they come out.

In a nutshell, I don't consider myself a collector. Lucky for me I guess. However, I will remain a returning customer to Spyderco.

[JLS]

I proposed a lower cost Para 2 with an economy steel and everyone shot it down. =\

This is key. I'm not saying we need a lower cost Para 2, but in general, perhaps we ought to rethink our desires with respect to cost. Nearly every time a new knife is announced, I see comments of "if this was S90V, I'd buy 3!!!!!!". I really don't know how true that is and if comments like that are taken too seriously, it isn't good for any of us. I think Spyderco knows better than to consider a comment like that as an order, but I think we all can understand the concern.

I, for one, don't like to pay extra money for carbon fiber scales on a knife that is supported by liners like the Military or Para 2. On something like the ZDP Walker or a linerless knife, it adds something, so I don't mind as much. I like a good looking knife, but I don't go as far as "cutlery jewelry"; once again, these are my personal preferences. I would rather see the upcoming Szabo with regular black G-10 and a price reduction rather than the "lightning strike" scales it will have. Will that stop me from buying one? Time will tell.

I see a lot of people asking for the "latest and greatest" with respect to materials but then lamenting the prices that result from these choices. I do really like great blade steels. My collection has quite a few higher end steels, but I'm also very satisfied with VG-10 as a blade steel. I love the Mule program to get great steels at a low price since there's no lock, handles, etc. Yes, you use a lot more steel for the knife than you would on a folder, but the Mules have been attractively priced for us.

I think the prices that Spyderco sets are fair. The LionSpy, for example, has a lot of titanium, carved G-10, the Rotolock and a rather large piece of Elmax. When you consider the development costs associated with working with a relatively new bladesteel, a change to the lock mechanism and everything else, I don't think the price is unreasonable.

Spyderco, IMO, has moved towards more expensive knives over the 17 or so year period I've been watching them. I bought my first in the mid '90's, a Rescue, and couldn't understand the pricing on the Military, then offered in both ATS-34 and 440V. As I type this, my M4 Ti/G10 Military is in my pocket. I get it now. The Military back then was probably their most expensive knife, with the exception of the original Walker. There is a much larger variety of more expensive knives now than ever before, but since they keep coming out, I have to assume they're selling well enough to sustain business and on-going development. We still have the Native, Delica and Endura, the latter two of which are better now than ever before.

Without being too flippant, if you think it could be done cheaper while maintaining quality, I'm sure Sal would welcome the competition and the rest of us would like to see what you produce. The first quote you get for laser cutting of blades, or even worse, stamping tooling for blades or liners will likely dissuade you from going further. Or maybe it won't and I'll be posting on your forum sometime in the future. :)

[bh49]

As I said, I'm open to suggestions?
sal

Did Spyderco consider to implement lean manufacturing?

[Blerv]

I can't offer any tangible manufacturing advice. As a consumer I do appreciate a spread of prices which is the spirit of this thread. Perhaps your Japanese makers should offer sprints in unlined FRN more often. Even with more aggressive profit margins the end msrp would be lower. I have to cross a psychological barrier to cross the three digit line and likely more casual shoppers have this conviction as well.

That or perhaps a new FRN model (with integrated frn clip) paying homage to Spyderco's roots as a throw-back.

Thanks for all you currently provide :) .

[cckw]

I have the exact opposite view as the OP. Spyderco make too many cheap knives. If those resources were used on knives that were more high end how many more cool knives would I have today?

The current economy has pinched me too, but I quit going to restaurants, that has freed up a whole lot of knife money.

[Ankerson]

One thing to think about is if Spyderco starts cutting to much into the bottom line they would need to start cutting in other areas to make up for those cuts and maybe lowering the quality of the products.

I doubt Spyderco would do this as they built their reputation on high quality.

In the end the economy will turn around and recover as it always has in the past, it just taking longer this time.

[The Deacon]

I have the exact opposite view as the OP. Spyderco make too many cheap knives. If those resources were used on knives that were more high end how many more cool knives would I have today?

The current economy has pinched me too, but I quit going to restaurants, that has freed up a whole lot of knife money.

While I would bet that the profits made from the inexpensive, high volume, models are what allow them the freedom to produce the "cool" ones, at least some of which are only marginally successful.

[Fred Sanford]

This has turned out to be a pretty good thread. I'm thankful for the participation.

I guess in the end, I just really need to focus on exactly what I want to "collect" or buy and save for those pieces. When I want more than 1 thing that is only available for a short period of time, I will need to choose which one I want more. I have to do this pretty regularly any way with all kinds of things.

It's interesting, all the perspectives and thoughts on this.


Sal, thanks for your input as well. It is always appreciated when you stop in and say "hey" in various threads. I'll be stopping by the Spyderco Factory in July, if I'm lucky I hope to meet you.

[sal]

I proposed a lower cost Para 2 with an economy steel and everyone shot it down. =\

Hi Donut,

It sounds like you are suggesting that we make a Para 2 in China?

sal

[sal]

Did Spyderco consider to implement lean manufacturing?

We've been into lean since we began the Golden factory. Hr. Honda and Mr. Toyoda are mentors for me. We're always improving our mfg methods. Our Seki makers have been lean longer than American companies. Thanx for the suggestion and awareness.

sal

[sal]

Hi Blerv,

Making linerless FRN is the Salt series. Going back to plastic clips would be to make something cheaper that has already proven to be less effective long term, or going backwards.

Reducing quality is not a viable option (thanx Jim). Don't know if I share your thoughts on the economy? We do have some basic values issues in this country.

Lowering prices is not possible unless all of our resources lowered their prices. Not likely as they all have their operating expenses as well. Ever think about the complexities of running a steel foundry?

Based on cost of mfr, these "expensive" models are not overpriced. The fact maybe that one simply cannot afford them, which is not a crime.

In the end, David, it's all about priorities, or values. That's what my Avatar is all about. Very few could afford to buy all of our models. And I would be the last to say that knives come before family or other obviously more important values.

We make a wide range of product for a wide range of people. Some are well off. Most are not. I can tell you that in terms of sales, we are certainly not in there with the very large knife companies.

There is only so much to go around. If a company chooses to put it into the product, and they choose to put it into the staff, there is much less for the bottom line.

sal

[Ankerson]

Except for I'm not the instant gratification type, I have no credit card debt because I paid it all off about 5 years ago. I have 1 car note.

Your post is great, but it's WAAAAY easier said than done. I'm a prime example of getting a better education and bettering myself. I am now the network administrator of the Cleveland Browns. I used to make minimum wage at a burger place. I'm also 39 years old. I already got a "better job" and I make good money. I also don't have a flat panel TV yet. Nope, not me. I have ZERO Hi-Def in my house. I have a 27" Low Def TV in the living room. I don't have an XBOX or Playstation or a Wii either.

You might say.......been there done that my friend, and I've got about 12 T-shirts.

Money comes and goes, so do jobs, especially these days.

I am 47 and I have had jobs in the past that paid extremely well and I have also had those Min Wage jobs as well.

Things change as they always do, in my current situation after taking a 40% pay cut from what I used to make, and that's with the same Company doing the same job I had to make some hard choices as one can imagine.

As of now I am looking into other fields that I use to be in back in my younger days.

That's after I had a talk yesterday and found that just me being Full Time alone is keeping me from getting a position closer to home, FT is like having the plague now..... :rolleyes:

And as of now I have to work 6 days a week in two different locations just to get 40 hours.... And I am in a Supervisor role......

[c.joe]

But how can Spyderco make things fairer for B&M dealers without making prices that consumers pay even higher than they are now, unless you assume they're making excessive profit on each knife, and can afford to simultaneously cut wholesale prices, cut MSRPs, and insist all dealers sell at full MSRP?

Not sure to be honest. But they most certainly don't need to insist all dealers to sell full MSRP. Online dealers can sell less because they don't have a high rent to pay. (big assumption, please correct me if I'm wrong) Most can even deal out if a garage if they wanted to. Rent in a mall can be upwards in the $5000 per month. Even more if you want a good spot. It is quite unfortunate.. Walk-in stores are going the way of the C80GBK. It's becoming harder and harder to manage one.

[c.joe]

While I would bet that the profits made from the inexpensive, high volume, models are what allow them the freedom to produce the "cool" ones, at least some of which are only marginally successful.

That is a very good point. Same goes for David in his last post. Perhaps asking for lower prices isn't the right question. Finding the right solution like we are now is perfect.

Sal, please don't drop the quality of your products to make things less expensive. And no para2 made in china! Haha.

[Blerv]

Thank you Sal.

I had no intent to suggest lowering quality or de-evolving the line. I only had one integrated FRN clip which was best up for years without breaking.

I also did not say they were overpriced or even expensive. Specificially a lower msrp or price is exactly that and no knock to valuation. Its a proven fact companies market with "$99.95!" rather than "$100" but perhaps it wouldn't impact sales of knives. You said Japan was struggling with margins due to rising expenses so that was just a thought. I'm not sure how past FRN knives would sell which use seperate clips (Goddard Jess Horn Lightweights) but the retail price would be less than $150.

Variety is great. You all offer a ton of it. While some believe knives without liners (and milled), jimping, and 4-way clips are archaic I don't. Best wishes for the future!

Edit: in previous responses I did say "expensive" as the opposing viewpoint of "cheap", in the context of price spectrum rather than valuation of quality.

[Zenith]

I have read the arguments...some interesting debate. However, I do feel some are making a mountain out of a moles heap...(cant think of the correct English expression right now).

Those in the US are paying an extremely low amount for knives IMO.

Take my country for example South Africa. Take any knife above $40 ad to that amount 20%, ad 14% vat, ad to that customs duty, ad to that the amount the retailer still has to ask to make any sort of profit and you get what we have to pay.

The secret is.....save your pennies. You dont have to buy something immediately. Save for the product and when you can buy it it makes it so much more rewarding. It took me 4 years to buy a Sebenza, probably every single knife I have bought has worked like this. Spyderco is no exception.

[Fred Sanford]

I have read the arguments...some interesting debate. However, I do feel some are making a mountain out of a moles heap...(cant think of the correct English expression right now).

Those in the US are paying an extremely low amount for knives IMO.

Take my country for example South Africa. Take any knife above $40 ad to that amount 20%, ad 14% vat, ad to that customs duty, ad to that the amount the retailer still has to ask to make any sort of profit and you get what we have to pay.

The secret is.....save your pennies. You dont have to buy something immediately. Save for the product and when you can buy it it makes it so much more rewarding. It took me 4 years to buy a Sebenza, probably every single knife I have bought has worked like this. Spyderco is no exception.

Thanks Zenith. Seeing a perspective from someone outside of the United States is nice. I will think about it more now. The best thing, in my opinion, about threads like these is that I think we all learn a lot. I know I do, and I hope others do as well.

[Halfneck]

Somewhat agree with what Mr. Lowry has posted. Prices on a lot of Spyderco's new knives have been in the upper limits of what I am willing to spend. I was really looking forward to the new Puukko, even though I was not fond of S30V steel being used. When I saw the price was going to be in the $200 or more range, it went off my list. At that price I can find custom made puukkos, and in my choice of materials.

That said, the Endura & Delica are still some of the best knives you can get at that price range. Moving up to the $100 range & you'd be hard pressed to find a folder better than the ParaMilitary.