Do you use the steel chart/steel elements info?

[jackknifeh]

When you are deciding on buying a knife with steel you have never owned do you look at the steel specs chart and elements descriptions? I looked at 3 steels; CPM-M4, VG-10 and ZDP-189 and looked at the elements chart to see what the elements in each steel added to the steel. From that I see that M4 is not stainless but has some corrosion resistance, but should be hard enough to hold and edge well and tough to not be brittle. That sounds pretty close to what I and others on the forum have experienced. But, would I have come up with that opinion of M4 just by reading the charts alone? Maybe to a limited extent. How much of each element has as much to do with the end result as does the fact that it is there at all. So, after comparing what is in the two documents and experience with given steels we should be able to look up a steel we have never used and have a pretty close opinion of what to expect. Is that possible? Has anyone used these charts to determine the pros/cons or attributes of a steel you have never used? I never have but will right now.

CTS-XHP: Should hold an edge very well and have average corrosion resistance. Not knowing any more about the elements than what is written in the Spyderco catalog this is what I get. Of course the Spyderco catalog is just a brief description of the elements. But what I see in the charts is about the same as it has been described by people on the forum which is about my only other place to get info, especially hands on experience. So, I would buy a knife with this blade steel.

Now I’ll look at a steel I’m familiar with.
ZDP-189: Very hard steel with higher than average edge retention and good corrosion resistance. Sounds like a steel I would buy right now. Having used the steel I’d say the info from the two charts is accurate. One thing I wouldn’t have gotten from the charts but did get from using the steel is that it has a tendency to chip when the edge is sharpened to low angles and used for EDC. Keep the very edge at a “normal” angle (36°-42° incl.) will reduce this issue. That is not in the charts but is added knowledge from experience. OTOH, a lot of people don’t seem to have seen this chipping issue as much as I have, or it doesn’t bother them. Even though I have noticed it I haven’t seen it actually affect the performance as an EDC steel.

Has anyone ever used the charts to determine steel qualities and then based your decision on what you get from them? If you read the charts after using a steel does the info in the charts match your opinion?

Jack

[Blerv]

I reference if especially if two steels are considered "close". Often you can decipher individual personality from it.

Still, like cooking an ingredient list may give you a general idea or let you know if you're allergic but it often can't tell you the specific taste.

[JCP1969]

Good question Jack. I think understanding the contents is very difficult without knowing a good deal about metallurgy. To much of a good thing can have negative affects. Not enough and you have a mediocre steel. Finding the best working range of a steels HT is beyond me and I leave it to the testers and users to help with my purchasing decisions. That being said. I have a molten salt pot and have used it. I need to get a metallurgy book to use it to its full potential without just wasting a lot of time. IMHO Spyderco is really breaking ground for the cutlery industry. Opening the door to the average knife user.(me) to consider performance of a steel. I know custom makers do as well but their audience is much smaller. I see a lot of worn out knives daily and understand why the search is on for the Super Steeeeeeeel!
I have sharpened the same steel by the same maker in 2 of the same knives( not Spyderco ) and felt the difference in hardness. I have to say. I don't like it . Those points in RHC do matter.
James

[jackknifeh]

Good question Jack. I think understanding the contents is very difficult without knowing a good deal about metallurgy. To much of a good thing can have negative affects. Not enough and you have a mediocre steel. Finding the best working range of a steels HT is beyond me and I leave it to the testers and users to help with my purchasing decisions. That being said. I have a molten salt pot and have used it. I need to get a metallurgy book to use it to its full potential without just wasting a lot of time. IMHO Spyderco is really breaking ground for the cutlery industry. Opening the door to the average knife user.(me) to consider performance of a steel. I know custom makers do as well but their audience is much smaller. I see a lot of worn out knives daily and understand why the search is on for the Super Steeeeeeeel!
I have sharpened the same steel by the same maker in 2 of the same knives( not Spyderco ) and felt the difference in hardness. I have to say. I don't like it . Those points in RHC do matter.
James

I have used VG-10 blades from two different companies and seen a huge difference in edge retention. I didn't do any "tests" except just using the knives. I was siding my house with vinyl at the time and the only thing I used both knives on was the vinyl siding. The Spyderco VG-10 held the edge MUCH MUCH longer than the other (well known) company's knife did. I assume it was due to the heat treat. So, the HT may have as much or even more to do with steel performance than the ingredients. That's why I have always wondered why Spyderco doesn't list the Rc THEY get on the different steels they use. We can send a knife to them and they will test it. Why can't they put the Rc hardness in a column on their steel chart? It's not the whole story but very valuable. It also was the only thing I went by when I started learning about different steel used in knives. VG-10 with Rc 60 and ZDP with Rc 65 meant something to me I could understand. That's very soothing to someone like me who knows very little or nothing about the subject. I know it's not the whole story but it's a very good start for a novice.

I wonder if a table could be created with blade steels down the left side and the qualities (edge retention, corrosion resistance, etc.) be listed across the top. A number could be assigned from 1-10 to indicate the level of each quality. No need to mention words like carbon, manganese, etc. would need to be mentioned. Like most of my thoughts there is probably something like that and I’m unaware of it. I think Ankerson has his list of steels and info on them but I don’t think I’ve looked at it. What the average joe would like to see is something very simplified. Well, that’s what I’d like to see. :) The table would need to be company specific I believe mainly due to heat treat results. I could create a chart for me with the steels I’ve used and my opinion in numbers of each quality. That wouldn’t do anyone else any good though due to my lack of experience. I can explain the differences between VG-10 and ZDP but my limited knowledge of a steel is also limited to a small set of steels. Also, it would be limited to my use of the steels. How someone uses their knives can determine opinions of the steel IMO.

Jack

[Sequimite]

When you are deciding on buying a knife with steel you have never owned do you look at the steel specs chart and elements descriptions?
Jack

Every time.

Love the chart.

[Clip]

Speaking of steels and charts, I'd like a rough outline of the thinnest edge a given steel can take and the optimum edge. This would be extremely time-consuming and very specific (say for cutting cardboard) but I'd still like to see one :D

[Ankerson]

The problem with something like that is that the variables are huge and the difference in performance will vary greatly depending on Hardness and the tempering process.

That's not even talking about how the blade and edge geometry and edge finish can effect performance or the difference in the test media.

[mikerestivo]

I have never used the steel charts to help me determine a purchase. I have looked at them a few times out of general interest. Just like Ankerson says, the charts are one thing, and the actual performance can be another depending on a range of variables.

I get more out of reading discussions like this about pros/cons for various steels. Spyderco is my primary fetish when it comes to knives, so I learn a lot from this forum.

[jackknifeh]

Speaking of steels and charts, I'd like a rough outline of the thinnest edge a given steel can take and the optimum edge. This would be extremely time-consuming and very specific (say for cutting cardboard) but I'd still like to see one :D

The problem with something like that is that the variables are huge and the difference in performance will vary greatly depending on Hardness and the tempering process.

That's not even talking about how the blade and edge geometry and edge finish can effect performance or the difference in the test media.

I'd have to say Ankerson is right plus how different people use a knife. This is just based on my opinion of steels, edge angles and performance. An example would be with my opinion of ZDP-189 compared to most people here. I like the steel but only when sharpened within a very specific window regarding the angle on the edge. I can only get acceptable performance with ZDP if the very edge bevel has an inclusive angle of 36° or higher (preferrably 40°). It also has to be large (wide) enough to see easily, no MICRO-bevel. The back bevel can be as low as you want. Lower than 36° on the edge I get micro chipping on the edge that I hate. I say it every time to be fair, it doesn't reduce performance much, if any. It just happens more than with other steels. Others however seem to have better luck or performance with ZDP at lower angles. Maybe my wrist bends and twists putting side pressure on the edge. :confused:

[The Deacon]

Nope. For one thing, I wouldn't have the foggiest idea what effect a bit more of this, a tad less of that, or a pinch of something else would have. For another, I'm convinced Spyderco doesn't use junk steels, so the only steel issue that will move a knife from my "rush out and buy" list to my "avoid it like the plague" list is whether or not it's stainless.

[Clip]

The problem with something like that is that the variables are huge and the difference in performance will vary greatly depending on Hardness and the tempering process.

That's not even talking about how the blade and edge geometry and edge finish can effect performance or the difference in the test media.

Agreed. That's why I can't even fathom how long it would take to do one complete test on one steel, much less the variety that companies use today.

[enduraguy]

Not typically. I admit to being a trend following, knuckle-dragger who buys what seems to be working for others :)

[Joshua J.]

When you are deciding on buying a knife with steel you have never owned do you look at the steel specs chart and elements descriptions? I looked at 3 steels; CPM-M4, VG-10 and ZDP-189 and looked at the elements chart to see what the elements in each steel added to the steel. From that I see that M4 is not stainless but has some corrosion resistance, but should be hard enough to hold and edge well and tough to not be brittle. That sounds pretty close to what I and others on the forum have experienced. But, would I have come up with that opinion of M4 just by reading the charts alone? Maybe to a limited extent. How much of each element has as much to do with the end result as does the fact that it is there at all. So, after comparing what is in the two documents and experience with given steels we should be able to look up a steel we have never used and have a pretty close opinion of what to expect. Is that possible? Has anyone used these charts to determine the pros/cons or attributes of a steel you have never used? I never have but will right now.

CTS-XHP: Should hold an edge very well and have average corrosion resistance. Not knowing any more about the elements than what is written in the Spyderco catalog this is what I get. Of course the Spyderco catalog is just a brief description of the elements. But what I see in the charts is about the same as it has been described by people on the forum which is about my only other place to get info, especially hands on experience. So, I would buy a knife with this blade steel.

Now I’ll look at a steel I’m familiar with.
ZDP-189: Very hard steel with higher than average edge retention and good corrosion resistance. Sounds like a steel I would buy right now. Having used the steel I’d say the info from the two charts is accurate. One thing I wouldn’t have gotten from the charts but did get from using the steel is that it has a tendency to chip when the edge is sharpened to low angles and used for EDC. Keep the very edge at a “normal” angle (36°-42° incl.) will reduce this issue. That is not in the charts but is added knowledge from experience. OTOH, a lot of people don’t seem to have seen this chipping issue as much as I have, or it doesn’t bother them. Even though I have noticed it I haven’t seen it actually affect the performance as an EDC steel.

Has anyone ever used the charts to determine steel qualities and then based your decision on what you get from them? If you read the charts after using a steel does the info in the charts match your opinion?

Jack

In the end, it's a knife and as far as EDC is concerned they will all cut. I could actually make good case for releasing low alloy knives at 50RC with the way people tend to use them (sometimes including me).
On the other hard, this is a hobby and I'm here for the technology. Performance is everything, I prefer to look at the data sheets from the foundaries, they have graphs for individual characteristics of the steel (which if taken alone can be a little misleading) as well as listing the general intended applications.
My personal experience is that I'm still learning what to expect from steel. Sometimes it goes the way you expect and other times it leaves you scratching your head.

[Papa_K]

I do look at the charts, but the only real buying factor for me there is the Chromium level. I've tended to stick with stainless steel folders, other than the Gayle Bradley.
It would be nice to see a published hardness range on the steel chart, as used by Spyderco.

The charts, combined with test threads, and general comments/reviews, do make me want to try some of the steels I don't have yet, but maybe even despite that, I'd probably pick VG-10 as my current favorite steel for Spyderco knives.

[agent clark]

Makes for good reading and comparison material while smoking a cigar.

[JCP1969]

Makes for good reading and comparison material while smoking a cigar.

this too and study to show thyself approved.

[zhyla]

I always want to read about a steel when I see a spydie with a steel I haven't heard of before. But unless it says something like "very hard to sharpen" it doesn't really matter to me. Steels and their usage is VERY complex if you're not into metallurgy.

I haven't been disappointed even with the somewhat "low end" GIN-1 on my original Native.

[jzmtl]

Yes, mostly to look up something I'm not familiar with. If you use android phone here's a really great app for looking them up quickly. https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... t.stlchmob

[JCP1969]

I always want to read about a steel when I see a spydie with a steel I haven't heard of before. But unless it says something like "very hard to sharpen" it doesn't really matter to me. Steels and their usage is VERY complex if you're not into metallurgy.

I haven't been disappointed even with the somewhat "low end" GIN-1 on my original Native.

That is a good point.

[/QUOTE]I wonder if a table could be created with blade steels down the left side and the qualities (edge retention, corrosion resistance, etc.) be listed across the top. A number could be assigned from 1-10 to indicate the level of each quality.

Jack. I think your idea of putting steels in categories is a good one. So the average user can select what would work best in their application . I would just add be more knife specific. There is a heck of a lot of folks out there not on the forums and not into collecting who would benefit from such a chart. Spyderco offers such a selection it isn't easy for a novice to choose easily. If it were in their catalog the consumer could weigh more easily the pros and cons. My dealer knows a heck of a lot about knives but having so many manufactures they have to sometimes look for guidance in there catalogs.

James

[Sonny]

I've been in the charts on Spyderco and Benchmade, as well as several of the major steel companies. My best help has been from the many posts, and I've known about ZDP for a long time, but have never had one. I've had a Caly3 for yrs, but with VG10 and never did try ZDP due to cost at the time. But I read a lot of testing; of course Ankerson comes first, but there are some others I respect. I like John Davis from Univ of Alabama; he seems to do a good job, and has a "semi-professional sharpening service" so he is knowledgeable in these areas. I like his sharpening with Japanese waterstones, EdgePro, Sharpmaker and sometimes a Smith two-sided diamond stone ($19) from WalMart.
I have an appreciation of D2 PRIMARILY because of Bob Dozier. I like CPM M4 although I know it may rust from moisture or "turn" due to use on citrus. I am biggest on S90V, 20 CP and M390 due to Ankerson because I like "the best." I also have M390 in BM's 755 powerful MPR although it is MUCH too fat for my liking. And I can switch to lower steels, like S30V because CRK uses that and S35V with great distinction. Ernie Emerson has, IIRC, a loyalty-based affinity for 154cm blades, and to my knowledge, has not evolved to the finer steels. But he seems to do quite well just as he is, and his blades/blade-designs seem to be quite successful.
So, although I started out by looking at charts, I've kind of evolved to my own list of "useful" steels due to the many guys who populate this forum. And I'm happy with that...for the time being.
sonny