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Its not quite right, it does depend a lot on who's involved and your surroundings. A very small number of fights I've seen have gone to the ground, none of the ones that I've been involved in have ever gone to the ground. Unless you want to count the ones where I hit someone...they fell to the ground and I walked away.

The original statistic was taken from the police, where they are taught to restrain suspects rather than just hit them repeatedly. Of course, if your police force is taught just to hit people until they get a chance to run away then the statistics might be different.

I have heard the expression over and over again...all throughout the years, mostly from Judo players and Wrestlers in the old days, and more recently Mixed Martial Artists seemed to be expressing the same old adage. The fact is IMHO it's a myth....I find if the parties involved are unskilled then often enough the fight might go to the ground. If two young inexperienced school yard kids are fighting, then it's most likely to end on the ground. Maybe it's a good method of fighting if you only have high school Wrestling or some high school Football playing experience. And if that is all they have in their personal defensive arsenal it might seems logical...barrel into the BG overpowering him and take out his point of balance, knock him off his feet backwards and then you win. But if you were to meet up with someone with more experience it might not be that easy.

Experienced fighters don't want to take someone down with them to ground level, they want to be up on their feet and fighting, using strategy, tactics, foot work, distancing, rhythm and timing and all the other dynamics of movement that will give the experienced fighter the edge, most of which can not be done on the ground. I'm not saying you shouldn't have ground fighting skills, but I believe the chances are you won't be needing them. I have even seen in some MMA schools where the students are taught when a fight breaks out, that they should immediately throw themselves backwards onto their backs on the ground to defend themselves...When I saw such a thing I couldn't help but laugh and think do these guys really expect you to jump down on the ground after them? It's like when I told one of my Kung Fu Masters many many years ago, I think high flying kicks at my opponents head is about the coolest thing ever. He told me, whenever you kick above the waistline, you leave your groin and foundation leg susceptible to attack...practice those high kicks but never use them...they are practiced for strengthening your low kicks...low kicks used on most opponents will be almost impossible for them to defend against, because they lack the speed in their leg work and maneuvers to get out of the way, on this point he was more than 100% correct.... he further went on to advise...if you want to kick someone in the head, knock them down on the ground first, then use their head as if you were playing soccer.

My final point is just because a lot of people are saying that something is true with so much conviction, doesn't make it true at all. What says you...what has been your experience....Doc :D

Awesome post Doc! Way too much to break down now and analyze on the cell phone. Gonna read it more later :)

I agree that timing, movement and balance are far more important. Fights go to the ground often as an unsaid mutual agreement. They clich to avoid the hitting but a good clincher doesn't wait for the ref. Proper unpadded strikes to unprotected areas can stop a fight quick.

As you said, going to the ground is a bad place to be. Mature vids on the net show far too many unscrupulous kicks and stomping (that can be fatal). Through years or roughhousing men usually know how to wrestle better than they can take a hit to the face.

If you're a smaller person count on striking vitals and explosive unbalancing. Don't try to outmuscle a gorilla. Better yet, avoid the jungle or carry an equalizer :p .

Well I'll add to the high school aspect of this. I've been in a few fights. All of which I choose to take to the ground, where I know I'm more skilled than my opponent.

Hey Doc,

Did you used to do plum piles? I hear those teach you to keep fights off of the ground.

SolidState wrote:Hey Doc,

Did you used to do plum piles? I hear those teach you to keep fights off of the ground.

If you are talking Meihuaquan (Plum Blossom Piles) I trained in Plum Blossom stump piles for many years, even blindfolded, weapons vs weapons...If this is what you a referring to then I'd say it not only keeps you off the ground but more like in the air....Doc :D

Here's my take on this.

If there's more than one BG avoid going to the ground at all costs. Once you're down, chances are you'll get stomped.

In one on one, taking it to the ground is a viable option if you are an experienced ground fighter. You can control larger and stronger BGs with the right technique. The What-A-Burger brawl is a nice example. I had a similar experience once, where the aggressor gave up before I choked him out. BUT, try to take it to the ground on your terms (e.g. a nice throwing technique to knock out the wind of the BG) and don't force it. Laying on the ground waiting for the BG to join the fun is not a good idea.

On the other hand, the things in the first post are also to be taken with a grain of salt. I've read the same arguments by e.g. Wing Tsung guys over and over, but I am convinced, that you cannot always avoid going to the ground, no matter how good you are. Look at the Gracie brothers and their matches against non-grapplinmg people.

Briefly, fights do not always end up on the ground, but you'd better be prepared if they do.


Ookami

I know without a pic...it didn't happen.....so here goes...I'm hoping this is what you are talking about....LOL
FWIW: Those Piles are 6-9 feet above ground level,(sorry for the bad pics) My stump garden as I liked to call it was built into a hollow on the side of a hill, the pics were taking in the fall so the leaves from the Oak trees filled the hollow and make it look as if the stumps are three foot off the ground...but trust me on this one 6-9 feet were the sizes in length off the ground...the first student I ever trained on them fell off and broke his leg. My teachers Stump garden was in water with jagged rocks at the bottom, and my Great Grandmaster learned his with Spearheads sticking out of the ground when he trained...kinda makes you want to stay up on the stumps.....Me.....I only had hard clay like soil and soft leaves beneath me....cause they knew I was a whimp.....lol.....Doc :D
[img][IMG]http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33 ... 1_0551.jpg[/img][/IMG]

Ookami wrote:Here's my take on this.

If there's more than one BG avoid going to the ground at all costs. Once you're down, chances are you'll get stomped.

In one on one, taking it to the ground is a viable option if you are an experienced ground fighter. You can control larger and stronger BGs with the right technique. The What-A-Burger brawl is a nice example. I had a similar experience once, where the aggressor gave up before I choked him out. BUT, try to take it to the ground on your terms (e.g. a nice throwing technique to knock out the wind of the BG) and don't force it. Laying on the ground waiting for the BG to join the fun is not a good idea.

On the other hand, the things in the first post are also to be taken with a grain of salt. I've read the same arguments by e.g. Wing Tsung guys over and over, but I am convinced, that you cannot always avoid going to the ground, no matter how good you are. Look at the Gracie brothers and their matches against non-grapplinmg people.

Briefly, fights do not always end up on the ground, but you'd better be prepared if they do.


Ookami

I catch the drift of some of what you are saying...but I'm also missing out on some of the points you make. I can't see how Wing Tsung Practitioners could make that argument as Wing Tsung basically has no footwork or leg maneuverability as it is a static style of Kung Fu when it come to legs, at least in the traditional sense. Maybe some modern day masters have added footwork to the style, but I would find it hard to believe that they would make those claims as it is very easy to topple a Wing Tsung exponent. The systems of Kung Fu I learned had not only very advanced stances and footwork, dedicated to evasion type techniques on one hand, but also incorporates a very intensive system of ground fighting where I might even choose to go to the ground in certain defensive situations, but I would not be grappling from the ground, I would be using my arms and legs to attack my opponents limbs and joints,and if I'm fighting multiple opponents from the ground, even if they had enough, decided they were getting hurt and wanted to run away, I have techniques to chase them from the ground without having to regain an upright fighting position. As I expressed earlier in my post I have never had to use those ground fighting techniques in an actual fight, and I have also never been taken down by a he-man equivalent charging like a bull directed at my knees to take me out of the game in real life...But I can tell you this...in practice over the years I have been hit below the waist by those human freight trains more times then I want to think about, and each and every time I was, (through use of the proper techniques, never ever seen in a MMA bout, with the Gracies or anyone else) when falling backwards off balance I was always able to end up on top of my opponent through the correct placement of hands and feet which insured that I was able to manipulate his body in such a way as to turn him on his back when tumbling with me ending up with me on top of him each and every time....the rest in a real fight would be up to me as to how to handle the situation from that point......Using the Gracies in the example you stated in their techniques used against a "Non-Grappling person" is not a fair nor good analogy. Anyone who has ever seen these matches can tell you about the countless times the Gracies won by default/disqualification because their opponent did something that was against the rules of the official MMA tournaments. MMA is a sport governed by rules to protect the participants from life threatening injuries. Play by the rules and maybe you'll be taken down. Real life fighting for your life has no rules...hence my opinions on what will work and what won't in my book are still valid. And as far as controlling techniques, if I were to put my opponent on the ground I would always accomplish this from a standing position, as there is no need to control an opponent by rolling all over the pavement with him till one of us achieved a better position or grapple to submission scenario...the pavement is an unforgiven surface to be fighting on, let alone rolling around on with an uncooperative opponent. Doc :D

The only fight i was ever in that ended on the ground ended with me getting kicked in the face, breaking my nose and blinding me. Before that i beat the **** out of this kid and he was on the ground, and i turned to walk away..at which point he got up, tackled me, got up before i could and kicked me as i turned to go after him.

Lesson learned, dont ever turn your back even on a downed opponent. Dont ever think its ovet just because theyre beat and on the ground.

The WT philosophy is to basically sidestep and chain-punch the guy into not wanting to go to the ground anymore or chain-punching to get out of a hold.

Like I said, if you can avoid going to the ground - good for you. But even the best may trip and fall over something or you might need to use a throwing technique for whatever reason and he manages to grab you and pull you down with him.

Re: Gracies
I am not a die-hard fan of them, but to me it shows that simple punches and kicks won't hold people off. Yet, that is what most people will be capable of - not everybody is a full-time martial artist. Placing incapacitating strikes in a stress-situation where the other guy is going after you full throttle may not be in the scope of everybody's ability. Also, sometimes there are situations where a certain level of force is just not justifiable - like when push comes to shove, gouging an eye or even crushing the larynx may be excessive.
For these reasons I think that the Gracie example holds water, since most fights are between amateurs or half-time fighters at best. Also, luckily most fights are not life or death.

Also, ground-fighting does need strategy, tactics, as well as a whole skill set of techniques to maneuver about, although you can't call it foot work (for obvious reasons) and these will give the experienced fighter the edge - just like standing techniques. Indeed, most ruffians will have a certain amount of experience in boxing or kicking, but few will know how to fight on the ground. Their main strategy will be to try and get into a mounting position to pummel you. Being able to avoid that is a big plus.


Ookami

Ookami wrote:The WT philosophy is to basically sidestep and chain-punch the guy into not wanting to go to the ground anymore or chain-punching to get out of a hold.

Like I said, if you can avoid going to the ground - good for you. But even the best may trip and fall over something or you might need to use a throwing technique for whatever reason and he manages to grab you and pull you down with him.

Re: Gracies
I am not a die-hard fan of them, but to me it shows that simple punches and kicks won't hold people off. Yet, that is what most people will be capable of - not everybody is a full-time martial artist. Placing incapacitating strikes in a stress-situation where the other guy is going after you full throttle may not be in the scope of everybody's ability. Also, sometimes there are situations where a certain level of force is just not justifiable - like when push comes to shove, gouging an eye or even crushing the larynx may be excessive.
For these reasons I think that the Gracie example holds water, since most fights are between amateurs or half-time fighters at best. Also, luckily most fights are not life or death.

Also, ground-fighting does need strategy, tactics, as well as a whole skill set of techniques to maneuver about, although you can't call it foot work (for obvious reasons) and these will give the experienced fighter the edge - just like standing techniques. Indeed, most ruffians will have a certain amount of experience in boxing or kicking, but few will know how to fight on the ground. Their main strategy will be to try and get into a mounting position to pummel you. Being able to avoid that is a big plus.


Ookami

Sorry Ookami, Your thinking on this issue (IMHO) is so far off base. I don't want to turn this into a spitting contest, so I'm not going to comment on what you posted...Believe what you want, if it works for you...then I wish you well...And lets hope you never have to test your theory....I'll just let it be and see what others have to say about their experiences....Good wishes stay safe...Doc :D

I am interested in your opinion.

Ookami

i haven't been in too many fights but in one i was actually seeing stars after being hit in the face a couple of times (the guy was fast, or my reaction time was slow, either way it hurt..lol) but luckily the guy charged me and my wrestling background came in handy. i ended up on top of him trying to punch his face through the dirt below. i agree that in a street fight you want to be up on your feet if there is more than a 1 on 1 fight. In the fight above i had a guy coming behind me about to swing a bottle over my head but my friend stopped him and politely told him to stay out of it . a quick boot to the head or face, as mentioned above is going to end the fight and get you a ride in an ambo or worse. i vote for staying on your feet, then you can run if SHTF.

I was at a Wing Chun Do seminar by James DeMile chatting with a few of his students back in the mid-90s. We were discussing transitions to groundfighting options from the forward pressure phase of the initial slap and trap of an engagement and this traditional Wing Chun student of black belt rank suddenly piped in about how easy it to evade a clinch and how he would just sprawl...blah...blah...blah. We tried to be cool about it and say how awesome he was but he just had to demonstrate how easy it was was to the point of being rather rude about it. Finally, my buddy got tired of it and threw me under the bus, "I would show you, but he's worse at shooting in than me so Mark will demonstrate it for you. (Thanks, Steve!)

We pair up and I feint a few times, shoot my hands high with a double Beuji fake and shoot in under his arms. He tried a textbook sprawl but I wasn't off balance as I shot in. I stepped back and shot in again as he was regaining his footing and there it was. Thinking it was over, I stepped back and was reaching to shake his hand when this non-optimal personage decided that I needed a punch in the face. So I shot in again after getting my bell rung a bit, took him down easily, and started the ol' twisty cranky on his neck until he tapped.

My point in all this is that a determined individual can, and will, get you in a clinch wether you like it or not. He might be fugly doing it, but he'll probably get the job done. Most of us aren't UFC fighters that eat, sleep, and breath this stuff and still get caught on the ground when they don't want to be on a regular basis.

Just food for thought...

psychophipps wrote:I was at a Wing Chun Do seminar by James DeMile chatting with a few of his students back in the mid-90s. We were discussing transitions to groundfighting options from the forward pressure phase of the initial slap and trap of an engagement and this traditional Wing Chun student of black belt rank suddenly piped in about how easy it to evade a clinch and how he would just sprawl...blah...blah...blah. We tried to be cool about it and say how awesome he was but he just had to demonstrate how easy it was was to the point of being rather rude about it. Finally, my buddy got tired of it and threw me under the bus, "I would show you, but he's worse at shooting in than me so Mark will demonstrate it for you. (Thanks, Steve!)

We pair up and I feint a few times, shoot my hands high with a double Beuji fake and shoot in under his arms. He tried a textbook sprawl but I wasn't off balance as I shot in. I stepped back and shot in again as he was regaining his footing and there it was. Thinking it was over, I stepped back and was reaching to shake his hand when this non-optimal personage decided that I needed a punch in the face. So I shot in again after getting my bell rung a bit, took him down easily, and started the ol' twisty cranky on his neck until he tapped.

My point in all this is that a determined individual can, and will, get you in a clinch wether you like it or not. He might be fugly doing it, but he'll probably get the job done. Most of us aren't UFC fighters that eat, sleep, and breath this stuff and still get caught on the ground when they don't want to be on a regular basis.

Just food for thought...

Cute story....but I really doubt the authenticity of skill of that practitioner ...since in Kung Fu....There is only two rankings.....Student and Master....no belt system in Kung Fu....NO such thing as a black belt...FWIW James was an expert boxer back in his air force days...some study with Bruce Lee for a short time...adapted some of Bruce's stuff into Wing Chun, invented his own Kung Fu Style Wing Chun Do.....Not really Kung Fu at all....But IIRC they did wear Kung Fu Uniforms....so maybe a black sash (the sign of a beginner, maybe mistaken by you as a black belt ranking)...Doc :D

Blerv wrote: Don't try to outmuscle a gorilla. Better yet, avoid the jungle or carry an equalizer :p .

best plan yet... make sure that equalizer is a good one! mine's a kimber

DCDesigns wrote:best plan yet... make sure that equalizer is a good one! mine's a kimber

Good choice....if they shoot for your legs, a kaNock on the head...the kimber is heavy enough to work...LOL...Doc :D

WC and BJJ as sole arts are great but make assumptions. That isnt a bad thing because they are frequently correct. Compared to say, Krav Maga they definitely have gaps in a combat situation.

For the times a WT guy is brought to the ground or a BJJ fights someone who wants to box/kick and eye gouge the assumption goes to **** quick.

Knowing how to control while on the ground is as important. Knowing how to get up quick (while keeping the other down) is very important. Striking and movement are also extremely important.

Nothing is ideal. Agreements work better in sport than combat and giving up the advantage of higher ground is always foolish. History's wars prove that.

Ps: not knocking any art, just some who practice. There are even Karate guys with tangible fighting experience :p . A friend once said teachers who preach never getting hit are stupid, you're gonna get hit, learn how to throw the last punch (or in his opinion a Muay elbow ).

I'd like to add to this if I may.

If you get into a fight or an argument with some guy at a bar and he goes away, you should get out of the area, because he's going to come back with some friends or a weapon.

Also beware of the small guy. He's the one who will pull a knife.

:|

I have even seen in some MMA schools where the students are taught when a fight breaks out, that they should immediately throw themselves backwards onto their backs on the ground to defend themselves..

AMEN Doc! I'm a fan of watching combat sports, but it's skewed reality something fierce!

but to me it shows that simple punches and kicks won't hold people off. Yet, that is what most people will be capable of - not everybody is a full-time martial artist. Placing incapacitating strikes in a stress-situation where the other guy is going after you full throttle may not be in the scope of everybody's ability. Also, sometimes there are situations where a certain level of force is just not justifiable -

Ookami - Not sure I follow; if your point is that when an individual is overwhelmed by an attacker, they should do whatever they're capable of to counter/stop the attack? Sure, of course. But, if you're at the point where striking a joint to hyper extend or some other stoppage move is too severe, that just means that the talking/running/walking away portion isn't over yet! If it's a fight, it's a situation that should be ended as soon as possible by all/any possibilities presented to you.