Spyderco Mule Team MT11P - M390

[Ankerson]

I know that when steel is heat treated too high that it becomes brittle and I am not asking that the M390 be pushed to its max. Not even to 62, but to 60-61, which as it has been said will give it significant advantages over the other steels that we are currently seeing (S90V and M4). And in this case, being the Mule project ($70) and not a $300 production knife I would think that it would be a prime time to get the steel to that level of heat treat and let the consumer see if there are any issues with it at that level. That rather is the point of the Mule project is it not? If every new steel is under-treated and we see no real difference then what is the point really? If we get S90V, M4, 20CP and M390 that are all behaving more or less the same...then why bother? Why not just use one of the steels and leave the rest.
That is all I am saying really, the Mule project is great and I love that all these new steels are being tested, but I think that by playing it safe with some of the steels the whole point is being slightly missed. I know that by treating higher there would likely be more waste, more blades that perhaps didn't make the cut (pun not intended) and that would drive costs up, but we are getting extremely lucky to get the steels that we are for the money they are charging I would think that a lot of the people that buy them would pay an extra $10 maybe $20 to get these new steels at as close to their best as possible.
I am sure that Sal and Spyderco have reasons for treated each steel the way they do, and perhaps as I do not know all the background info that they do, I should not question why this Mule was treated to 59-60 rather than something slightly higher, but I am curious.

The thing you are missing is that only through testing will the differences really show up.

Under normal use you may or may not see a difference in edge retention and or how they cut depending on material being cut, edge finish ect.

A lot of the steels are much closer in performance than people would think they are under normal use and some are really so close it would take CATRA to see the difference.

M390 is different than S90V and S90V is different from M4, they all react different in how they cut.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Perhaps you are right. And after seeing all the testing that you do..I am sure that I should take your word on it. But I still think that the consumer using each steel treated to be its best (and by that I mean the balance of edge holding and toughness) and providing feedback based on real life day to day use would tend to be the best measure for a company like Spyderco.

And just before I get accused of being overly critical or that if I complain so much how can I be a fan of the company, I only ask and question these things because I care and like the products. If I didn't I would just say what ever and go buy something else.

I will be buying this new Mule because I am curious as to it's performance, Though depending on the cost, and if someone such as yourself thought that it would be a significant improvement to the steel, I might very well get it heat treated to that 61-62 level.

[Ankerson]

Perhaps you are right. And after seeing all the testing that you do..I am sure that I should take your word on it. But I still think that the consumer using each steel treated to be its best (and by that I mean the balance of edge holding and toughness) and providing feedback based on real life day to day use would tend to be the best measure for a company like Spyderco.

And just before I get accused of being overly critical or that if I complain so much how can I be a fan of the company, I only ask and question these things because I care and like the products. If I didn't I would just say what ever and go buy something else.

I will be buying this new Mule because I am curious as to it's performance, Though depending on the cost, and if someone such as yourself thought that it would be a significant improvement to the steel, I might very well get it heat treated to that 61-62 level.

It would cost about as much as the knife to get it bumped up I believe.

I do think you will be pleased with M390 59-60 though, that's what Benchmade is running their blades at now.

[jabba359]

But I still think that the consumer using each steel treated to be its best (and by that I mean the balance of edge holding and toughness) and providing feedback based on real life day to day use would tend to be the best measure for a company like Spyderco.

I respectfully disagree with this. While I'd love for them to also be heat-treated to their maximum performance level, I think that it is most useful for Spyderco to heat treat them to whatever level a normal production environment could support. This way, Spyderco will get an idea of how the steel performs using the same heat treat that they would use if it went into a future production model.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

Yes but in this case 60-61 should be able to be done in a production quality knife. And if it makes that big a difference in the performance, then why not do it?

[Ankerson]

Yes but in this case 60-61 should be able to be done in a production quality knife. And if it makes that big a difference in the performance, then why not do it?

It's a mute point now as they are already released. :)

[JCP1969]

just curious but in the future assuming these don't sell out will they remove the purchase limit. I know there are ways around but I want to play fair.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

It's a mute point now as they are already released. :)

Very true. Be putting my order in for one regardless.

[cckw]

I think one other "performance" factor that is not being considered is the effects of a dumbass user. We are talking about toughness under proper use. But they also consider improper use to some degree. I am a careful cutter 99.99% of the time, but Captain Caveman types severely outnumber me. I agree with Snoo for my own use. But as mentioned before I have worked in sales and marketing in manufacturing and know how the planning goes to nail down a products final configuration and the dumbass factor is a big deal.

[Ankerson]

I think one other "performance" factor that is not being considered is the effects of a dumbass user. We are talking about toughness under proper use. But they also consider improper use to some degree. I am a careful cutter 99.99% of the time, but Captain Caveman types severely outnumber me. I agree with Snoo for my own use. But as mentioned before I have worked in sales and marketing in manufacturing and know how the planning goes to nail down a products final configuration and the dumbass factor is a big deal.

That's why the Spyderco warranty states not to pry with, take apart or abuse the knife. They say something to the effect that they make high performance cutting tools.

Also the reason why production knives in general aren't ground paper thin, that solves a lot of dummy issues right there.

But yeah Spyderco usually runs their steels about 1+ HRC below max for a balance of performance and toughness, that depends on how their testing turns out what the final hardness would need to be.

[MCM]

It would cost about as much as the knife to get it bumped up I believe.

I do think you will be pleased with M390 59-60 though, that's what Benchmade is running their blades at now.

The other co is running 60-62 (thats whats listed anyway, but who knows? I didnt test 'em)

The spyderco edge will be better though.......
And should perform much better.......

[Donut]

While one or ten people might benefit from the additional wear resistance of a 60-61 knife, I think the customer base as a whole will benefit from the additional toughness of a 59-60 knife.

Maybe one day there should be a 65 hrc sprint done for the small percentage of users that really want the sacrifice involved with additional wear resistance.

[mongatu]

I bet an M390 blade would still be plenty tough at 60/61.

[Handwrecker]

Spyderco really pushes the hardness from what I have seen.

Tested Spyderco's that were RC tested at the following:

ZDP-189 @ 65

2x S90V @ 60

1x S90V @ 59

3x S30V @ 60

1x S30V @ 58

M4 @ 62.5

CPM D2 @ 62

CTS 20CP @ 60

:eek: Good to know, thanks Spydercrew.

EDIT: did you ever test the hardness of the BM M390 710? I've been using mine heavily for the past week, and M390 has been pleasing me. Seems to hold that initial edge well, kinda like CPM154

[Ankerson]

The other co is running 60-62 (thats whats listed anyway, but who knows? I didnt test 'em)

The spyderco edge will be better though.......
And should perform much better.......

They were tested and came in at 60 HRC.

:eek: Good to know, thanks Spydercrew.

EDIT: did you ever test the hardness of the BM M390 710? I've been using mine heavily for the past week, and M390 has been pleasing me. Seems to hold that initial edge well, kinda like CPM154

Yes, 60 HRC.

[cckw]

That's why the Spyderco warranty states not to pry with, take apart or abuse the knife. They say something to the effect that they make high performance cutting tools.

Also the reason why production knives in general aren't ground paper thin, that solves a lot of dummy issues right there.

But yeah Spyderco usually runs their steels about 1+ HRC below max for a balance of performance and toughness, that depends on how their testing turns out what the final hardness would need to be.

Yes, I know they give those warnings. I don't mean to argue, but I have have taken customer calls at the factory, and just because you say the product is not intended for "X" does not mean customers won't do it then want warranty. So you have a margin of error.

I am not saying I am sure of this factor in their hardness. But am sure of the customer side of it and that it is a factor in product planning, so "could" be a consideration the final harness decision.

[Ankerson]

Yes, I know they give those warnings. I don't mean to argue, but I have have taken customer calls at the factory, and just because you say the product is not intended for "X" does not mean customers won't do it then want warranty. So you have a margin of error.

I am not saying I am sure of this factor in their hardness. But am sure of the customer side of it and that it is a factor in product planning, so "could" be a consideration the final harness decision.

There is no way a production makers can know what every knife will be used for so they have to find a balance.

Custom makers are different, they know their customers and what the knife will be used for and or how it will be used so they can tailor the knife to the customers needs.

[Donut]

I've been carrying my recently purchased MPR for a few days and at BM's hardness, M390 seems very similar to VG-10 (sharpening and wear) with maybe 10% more edge holding. It is a fine grained steel.

Maybe my experience is wrong, but that is what I am seeing.

[sal]

Hi SnooSnoo,

Sorry to be slow in getting to you on this. Been busy with the Blade show and all.

Our M390 was heat treated at 59-60. It was the "Optimal" hardness for the steel. We also learned that getting the Rc over that is not an easy thing to do. To my knowledge, no production company has made it harder.

Jim's knife was made by Phil Wilson, who is a bit of a heat treating guru for the rest of us. Phil also grinds his edges far thinner than most. the extra hardness and thin edge certainly contribute to Jim's testing results.

Our heat treating is quite good, but we couldn't get to that hardness with the information provided. If you want to bump the Mule team up to the higher rockwell, I would recommend you use Phil. Uddeholm's rep said they would speak with our heat treater to let him know their "tricks", but we haven't heard yet. Uddeholm says their CATRA test pieces were 61+, but I don't know who did their blade.

I might also add that in a production setting, where more than one blade is heat treated in a batch, we will more than likely go 59/60 on production and use a thicker edge than Phil does.

We're making a Phil Wilson collaboration (South Fork) but we'll be using Crucible's CPM-S90V for the production pieces.

sal

[gus88]

anyone receive theirs yet??
i ordered mine as soon as it released and am itchin in my pants. just got my halpern scales yesterday so i cant wait to get my first mule up and running :cool: :D