Rust and M4

[GohawnFG]

Alright guys, I'm having some rust issues with my M4 Manix 2 This bothers me quite a bit being more of a collector than a user. So, since I first took it out of the box, the M4M2 has had pitting around the Spydie hole and the :spyder: logo area on both sides of the blade. Obviously this is due to my thumb being there open and closing it. However (you'll have to take my word for this), because it's not a user I make sure my hands are clean and dry before handling it. That of course doesn't make it rust-proof.

From my understanding of M4, it's a high carbon steel so patinas and such are natural. That being said I've dunked several other knives wearing 8Cr13Mov in water and neglected to wipe them down, but there's no rusting.

Since I first saw rust on the M4, I've thoroughly cleaned it off and oiled it (generously). However, every time I take the knife out there's a new patch of rust :confused: I've slathered it in vaseline and nearly dunked it in WD-40(don't have access to other lube at the moment) but it doesn't seem to be working. Any ideas? I live in a rather dry climate.

[Creepo]

M4 is a tool steel so it has too little chromium to make it stainless. 8Cr13MoV on the other hand has a lot more chromium making it stainless.
I have experienced patina around the Spydie hole and the spine with my M4 Military, I have used it but it was there on the first couple days when I got it when I wasn't using it yet. It's just the oils from our hands that induce the chemical reaction. Only way to prevent it really is to wear gloves or not touch it.

What you described sounds odd though, when covered in oil it shouldn't develop more corrosion. WD-40 is NOT an oil or a lube, WD stands for water displacement, so it only gets rid of moisture. It does that but it's NOT an oil and it's also a very poor lube. WD-40 evaporates somewhat over time so you shouldn't use that to protect your blades. Vaseline on the other hand should keep it from rusting. :confused:

What have you used to clean the rust off? I have used some Flitz on mine and it got rid off some of it but not all, it's in there pretty good.

Also I would recommend you invest in a better oil to lube your knives and protect them from corrosion, I recently purchased some Quick Release and I've been really impressed by it, it's a pretty thick oil and lubes pivots like a dream, it also seems to prevent corrosion very well on my blades.

[SolidState]

The Japanese sword people use NOXON to get rid of rust. It does not have abrasive particles like the Flitz, and it works quite well. You should probably just use light mineral oil combined with dessicant packages. It sounds like you may have a chlorine issue.

Don't use WD-40. Use a low-vapor-pressure oil. Make sure you kill the active rust before coating, and use mineral oils.

[geronm042]

Best would probably be to use it, get a nice "protective" and nice looking patina....

[jackknifeh]

Creepo: Quick Release

Persistance: 8Cr13Mov

I know someone who had the same problem you are having with a Persistance with 8Cr13Mov steel. This was really wierd because that is a stainless steel. He got rid of it with steel wool and hasn't had any problem since. I would expect it more on M4 from what I've read about it. Creepo mentioned Quick Release which I have tried and really liked also. I used it exclusively on two knives for over a year with no problems. It also has great reviews from people who put their knives/tools through much harsher treatment than I do. I use Tuf-Glide most of the time (because I bought an 8 oz. refill bottle) and haven't had any problems. Both of these lubricants claim very similar performance features concerning corrosion.

I just got my first M4 steel knife. As usual, I drowned the pivot with Tuf-Glide and wiped the blade down with the Tuf-Cloth. Skin oil is one of the worst contributors to corrosion and skin oil is different from person to person. I noticed this thread because since M4 isn't stainless and I just now got an M4 knife and want to stay on top of it. Haven't had any problems in 5 days. :D I have touched it a lot getting used to the lock (first Manix 2). If I were you I'd use Tuf-Glide, Quick Release or one of the new anti-corrosion lubricants.

Good Luck,
Jack

[chuck_roxas45]

My ZDP Endura developed some rust spots after I happened to drop it into a fish pond and I didn't manage to clean it for a few days. I tried to sand away tiny pits but wound up scratching the blade. I decided to polish the blade instead.

[img][IMG]http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/386/ ... endura.jpg[/img] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

[MCM]

Have lots of M2, M4, carbon steel blades.
Been using this stuff for 20 yrs.
Never a problem.

[VashHash]

The more polished a blade is the less likely it willl rust. I'm not knocking spyderco but the satin finish of the blades doesn't help in the rust department. I personally use my M4 military. Its one of my favorite edcs. Spyderco always was a maker of user knives. Even their classy knives with exotic steels were made to be used. I personally use gunzilla and find it to work well at combating patina and rust of course everyone has their own tonic. Ph levels in the skin make a huge difference though regardless of weather. Its hard not to handle a new knife. All I can say is buy another if finacially possible and experience the combination of manix meets M4. I'm sure polishing the blade would be a no no for a collector but for someone looking to use the knife hard this would help keep rust out as particles of rust inhibitors would have a hard time getting in the pores of the steel. Not sure if pores is the techincal term but think of it like sandpaper. The lower the grit the more stuff stays trapped in it and clogs the paper. Its similar with steels

[Jose Diaz]

We have been using CPM M4, in our BladeSports competition blades for years. Storing the blade dry is important. We also use Silicone spray, purchased at the local ACE Hardware store, to coat the blades before and after competition. I havn't had any rust issues since using this product.

Good luck.

[Blerv]

It's funny but I have had the opposite experience.

My brother and ordered the m4 Manix2 and were a bit paranoid. I figured it would spot rust while in the box. Everyday I open my knife drawer and expect the worst.

Still, with carry in low humidity/non salt areas (Seattle) it's not even started to patina. My bro uses his for food prep and even let fruit juice sit on it for a couple mins prior to washing/drying it. I'm going to lube it today just as a precaution but don't think it's needed.

That said, my knives touch water less than witches in Oz. :)

[GohawnFG]

Thanks for all the feedback guys, I really appreciate it!

Creepo - I brought up 8Cr13Mov 'cause it seems notorious for rusting, especially with a nice porous bead blast finish. I figured that if the oils on my skin were causing the pitting, then my users that contact sweat, water, and oils daily should be in worse shape. I suppose it's an unfair comparison with M4 being a tool steel.

Lol, I've read so much about WD-40 on various forums that it seems whenever it's brought up to be used on a knife, it's a no no :p I was trying to displace the water, lol, but I agree that it's a poor lube. I handle my blades almost daily, and re-WD-40 them before storage so they're always coated.

I'll admit I haven't used the best tech to take off the rust. A couple pads, soap and water, and some oil. I tried not to disturb the finish on it, so didn't use scouring pads or polish. This is probably why it keeps coming back


geronm042 - To be honest, the Manix is a bit big for my personal carry. I think if anyone around here saw me pulling it out, the cops would be here within the minute :rolleyes:


chuck_roxas45 - That is a sexy polishing job Chuck! :cool:


VashHash - I guess if I didn't have any other choice I'd give it a nice polish. Using it isn't very practical for me in my opinion. If I chose to use it I'd want to use it hard and not just open a couple boxes and envelopes. But I'm on a school campus half the time, and the other half is spent mostly at home. Hmm, the more I think about it, the more I feel like giving it a nice mirror polish.


Blerv - Oh how I wish that were my case. Perhaps my M2 is rebelling for being stored in a box.


SolidState, jackknifeh, MCM, & Jose Diaz - Thanks for all the recommendations, I'll definitely look into them.


I guess it's time I invested in some better equipment. Everything on hand has worked for me so far so there wasn't a need, but I suppose M4 is more demanding!

[Blerv]

I picked up some food grade mineral oil today and it went on easy and wiped off similar. No funky smells or residue so I applied it liberally.

Not sure if it can compete with the likes of Tuffglide but non-toxic is a big perk.

Goodluck bud!

[Stephen]

If you're not going to be cutting food with it, +1 for the Tuf-cloth. I use it and my knives never rust.

They're really popular for use with guns, that's why I picked first one up. They work great for all metal though. Also, it's a dry lube, so there's not a wet layer of "goo" that gets everywhere.

Here's part of the product description: "Tuf-Cloth applies a water-displacing, micro-bonded crystal barrier to protect against rust, friction, and wear in any condition, for all of your firearms and metal equipment. Tuf-Cloth provides superior protection compared to any oil or silicone based products against moisture; including extreme conditions and environments."

Good luck with whatever you pick.

[WireEdge Roger]

I use my CPM-M4 Manix for everything, even cut up oranges with it. I'm none too careful with it, but I do wash it with dish soap and warm water, dry it off thoroughly and all it does is darken. I use to worry about it turning orange overnight, but it seems fairly resistant to rust from my experience.

[grumpyphil]

Alright guys, I'm having some rust issues with my M4 Manix 2 This bothers me quite a bit being more of a collector than a user. So, since I first took it out of the box, the M4M2 has had pitting around the Spydie hole and the :spyder: logo area on both sides of the blade. Obviously this is due to my thumb being there open and closing it. However (you'll have to take my word for this), because it's not a user I make sure my hands are clean and dry before handling it. That of course doesn't make it rust-proof.

From my understanding of M4, it's a high carbon steel so patinas and such are natural. That being said I've dunked several other knives wearing 8Cr13Mov in water and neglected to wipe them down, but there's no rusting.

Since I first saw rust on the M4, I've thoroughly cleaned it off and oiled it (generously). However, every time I take the knife out there's a new patch of rust :confused: I've slathered it in vaseline and nearly dunked it in WD-40(don't have access to other lube at the moment) but it doesn't seem to be working. Any ideas? I live in a rather dry climate.

I don't know if this could be a contributing factor but as a machinist, I deal with a lot of different tool steels. I have also had the misfortune of being around a lot of other machinists :D . Over the years I've noticed that certain people have acidic sweat or oils or DNA, or WHATEVER, that makes steel rust almost before your eyes. You can test that by putting a thumbprint on a piece of ground steel (or your blade) and see what happens and how fast. If you see rust, there is your answer. You may be one of those folks. If that's the case, you should consider suicide or better yet, give your knives a squirt of denatured alcohol after you've fondled them. That will neutralize your disgusting oils and save that precious steel. You might want to consider cotton gloves for further fondling. :p

[JNewell]

CPM-M4 seems to be more rust-resistant than M2, perhaps due to the powder metal method used to make it.

Almost anything that coats the blade will keep corrosion down. WD-40 is not a lube but I have been using it on carbon steel firearms longer than many people here have been alive and have never had an issue with it, but you can get equally good results from many products (Sheath...Tuf-Glide...BoeShield...mineral oil...olive oil...etc.) as long as you're not exposing the metal to high humidity or actual moisture, though some are not food safe and others will get tacky or even rancid with passage of time.

[Water Bug]

I concur with those members who've noted that some people's body chemistry (skin oils) are more corrosive than others. I've seen it happen when some people handle a brass pen I own... in the case of one guy who handled it, his fingerprints were showing up within an hour or two after he touched it.

I also concur that, perhaps, the corrosive oils of a person's fingertips on a high carbon steel blade may need to be removed or neutralized prior to the application of a protectant.

I use Hoppe's 9 Gun Oil on my high carbon knife blades. As I've noted before, if it's good enough for my guns, it's good enough for my knives.

[racer88]

Another recommendation for the Tuf Cloth. I wipe all of my Spydies down with one before putting them away in my Spyderpac. No rust or even patina (yet) on any of my Spydies (even M4 blades).

[Slash]

my best guess is that it sounds as though m4 doesn't like wd40. so, thoroughly clean the blade with lots of soap and water. dry it well. apply a good dry lube (militec-1) as per instructions and you should have much less rust issues. I know it's a bit pricey. but, you know the old saying that goes "you get what you pay for."

[GohawnFG]

Blerv - If things go according to plan the M4M2 won't be prepping any food for me, but that's definitely a great perk for my users. Thanks for the kind words :)

grumpyphil - I think I may have to go hang myself after this :p You're actually right on the money, I have Palmar Hyperhidrosis. Wow, first time I've used that term(actually had to go look it up, lol) and it sounds terrible. Basically a high concentration of sweat glands on my palms. My hands can get sweaty just from me thinking about it. Can't "turn it off" unfortunately, lol. Because of that I'm extremely anal about having clean dry hands before getting remotely near my collectibles, so I like to think that that isn't the reason for this. However I'd be willing to accept that it isn't as much the sweat but the corrosive oils on my skin that's the main culprit. Looks like I gotta throw on some gloves

Water Bug - I can sympathize with those people, unfortunately for me. I haven't met anyone that has it as bad as I do(until I met my girlfriend, lol). An operation is so tempting it's ridiculous. Thanks for the Hoppe's recommendation, I've heard of it but never really looked into it. Will do that now.



Looks like everything Tuf has majority's vote at the moment, so I'll see if I can pick some up tomorrow. Thanks again for everyone's input! Now, does anyone have any good suggestions about making sure the old rust is gone, perhaps without damaging the original finish on the blade? Or am I SOL on that? The pitting doesn't seem to be bad, but either there's a bit that refuses to come off, or I'm not using enough elbow grease.