Cpm s30v vs. Vg10

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Grego77
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Cpm s30v vs. Vg10

#1

Post by Grego77 »

I am curious...both steels get such great reviews, based on the heat treatment etc...that Spyderco uses on both steels, how far behind S30V is VG10 in overall performance etc...?
Tsujigiri
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#2

Post by Tsujigiri »

Not very much. S30V was the upgrade to 154 CM steel, and VG-10 is usually about as good or better than 154 CM. Here's an approximate rating chart for edge retention: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... p?t=792540
It's very well done, but all the steels weren't from the same company, so results may vary. Spyderco does HT their blades harder than most others, after all.
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#3

Post by dj moonbat »

Also, I'd like to know which is the One True Religion.
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#4

Post by Zenith »

I dont have a plain edge VG10 so I cant really compare the two. However, some food for thought, I think personally it all comes down to what you find easiest to sharpen (if one is a new knife user). S30V is more of a steel nuts steel, most people with S30V can sharpen a knife. Newbies find the steel a bit hard to sharpen in my experience (my friends complain they cant get it sharp). VG10 is a more newbie friendly steel offering good performance while still being easy to sharpen. Much like ATS34 or 154cm. At the end performance wise I think it all depends on your uses. For me it is a coin toss, both do what I want extremely well.

I am no metallurgist but at some point in every steel composition starts to play a role in the performance of a steel. I wish I had that knowledge to give an exact explanation but sure some people with more knowledge will chime in.
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SQSAR
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#5

Post by SQSAR »

Tsujigiri: Thanks for that link, , ,very interesting.
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psychophipps
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#6

Post by psychophipps »

There is no "true religion" in steels. Everything is a toss-up and there is no such thing as a free lunch. S30V has superior edge retention, excellent corrosion resistance, great toughness but it tends to chip when it fails, and is typically heat treated fairly hard. S30V is also expensive and notoriously difficult to machine and grind which means that it can be hard to sharpen if you let the edge go too long.

VG10 has excellent edge retention, good corrosion resistance, and it tends to bend or roll rather than chip when it gets pushed to failure. VG10 isn't the easiest steel to grind or machine and is also fairly expensive, but is still cheaper than S30V. VG10 is easy to sharpen, especially when compared to super-steels like S30V.

I think that VG10 is pretty much the best "general use" steel out there. It's also used on the Fallkniven products and these knives are all absolutely top-notch knives with excellent edge retention and strength for hard outdoors use.
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Blerv
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#7

Post by Blerv »

VG10 is only slightly behind CPM-S30v in CATRA testing from the results Spyderco published a long time ago. I believe it's better against corrosion but a little less "tough".

For all intensive purposes they are premium steels and depending on where a knife is made (USA vs Japan) you will be happy with either. If we didn't have access to the exotics I would be happy to have all my blades in either steel with a proper heat-treat.
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#8

Post by mongatu »

VG-10 is my all around favorite stainless because of its great balanced performance. It may not be the best in any single attribute but it has no weaknesses either. Takes a great edge easily, holds it pretty well, is tough (not prone to chipping), good corrosion resistance and has a nice luster. Love the way it is so easy to sharpen and touch up.
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#9

Post by hunterseeker5 »

Its a mistake to try and compare the two steels, as they are both very different and excellent in their own ways. If however you are of the "penis measuring club" S30V is widely considered to be "longer" by those who don't know much about steels.

I find S30V to be excellent at maintaining a working edge for quite some time, whereas VG10 has an ability to attain an extremely sharp edge.
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ChrisR
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#10

Post by ChrisR »

It's also a bit of a false comparison because S30V is used on American-made knives and VG-10 is used on Japanese-made knives - so they tend to be used on completely different models of knife. Neither has any big problems so just buy the knife you want :)
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#11

Post by TBob »

I believe that "true religion" in knives is recognizing that there are many good steels, and each has its own strengths and weaknesses which lead to different ideal applications. That makes the choice very personal, and particular answers depend on individual usage patterns. Overall knife ergos and construction must be important considerations along with the steel. A great blade in a poorly constructed or ergonomically challenged platform has little value.

That said, my personal usage pattern and preferences lean towards S30v over VG-10, although both are excellent steels and I have no problems carrying either. I tend to highly value edge retention, and S30v does better in that category. I can get an equivalent edge on either one with the Sharpmaker. Other exotic steels like ZDP-189 and CPM-M4 do even better if you have leanings in those directions.

Again, its best to judge the overall knife design, construction, and suitability to your intended uses while considering the various blade steels. The product as a whole must be suitable and effective for you to be a good value.
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#12

Post by JNewell »

Amen. ;)

Not just what steel, but:

- how hardened?
- what grind?
- what primary and secondary bevels?
- what use, what will be cut?

...among other things.
TBob wrote:I believe that "true religion" in knives is recognizing that there are many good steels, and each has its own strengths and weaknesses which lead to different ideal applications. That makes the choice very personal, and particular answers depend on individual usage patterns. Overall knife ergos and construction must be important considerations along with the steel. A great blade in a poorly constructed or ergonomically challenged platform has little value.

That said, my personal usage pattern and preferences lean towards S30v over VG-10, although both are excellent steels and I have no problems carrying either. I tend to highly value edge retention, and S30v does better in that category. I can get an equivalent edge on either one with the Sharpmaker. Other exotic steels like ZDP-189 and CPM-M4 do even better if you have leanings in those directions.

Again, its best to judge the overall knife design, construction, and suitability to your intended uses while considering the various blade steels. The product as a whole must be suitable and effective for you to be a good value.
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#13

Post by D1omedes »

Like many other fellow Spydie-owners have explained, both steels are favorable for different reasons. Personally, I prefer VG10 over CPM S30V. My EDC tasks do not require a steel that keeps a working edge for a long time. Add in VG10's ability to keep its razor's edge for a bit longer and overall easier time of sharpening and it's a no-brainer for me.

There was one time that I was glad I had CPM S30V on my person. When I was working in a warehouse setting, I had to cut up dozens and dozens of cardboard boxes. My UKPK kept on ticking all day. It took some time for me to restore its initial razor sharp edge but it performed wonderfully.

The only super steels that I really would like to test out are S90V/CTS 20CP and CPM M4. So far, none of these steels have been offered on a design that's right for me. I'm hoping I can snag a Para 2 in the CTS variant but I won't be devastated if I miss out. VG10 keeps me happy day to day. If there ever comes a time when I really do need a tough workhorse, I'll probably pony up for a Gayle Bradley - M4 is the real deal and it's not impossible to pick one up.
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camokid
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VG-10 VS. S30v

#14

Post by camokid »

VG-10 gets my vote. I love my S30v blades, but I tend to perfer a "hair popping Edge" Therefore, I pretty much touch up my blades with the SM fine rods everyday. S30v does hold a longer "working edge" when compared to VG-10. I have found threw my on experience that Superme working edge retention is not that important when you touch up your blades as much as I do. But, dont get me wrong if I where going on a vacation or somthing I might choose S30v. When it come down to the line which do you perfer a S30v- "longer lasting edge" VS. VG-10-"great edge retention that is easier to sharpen" wonderful :spyder: thread guys. :spyder:
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#15

Post by Evil D »

S30V definitely holds a working edge longer, and to me doesn't really take any more effort to sharpen. Reprofiling takes a bit more work but nothing like ZDP-189. I've found that when really pushed hard, VG10 will roll or get a shiny edge, whereas S30V won't (or to say the least, not near as fast). Some people like to trade off the lack of edge rolling and say S30V will chip, but i haven't had a single issue with chipping the edge. If you compare the two steels by whittling sticks...which is something that shouldn't chip your edge at all, then you will definitely see that if both edges are sharpened to the same bevel degree, VG10 will get a shiny edge well before S30V will.
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#16

Post by The Deacon »

It's also something of a moot point, at least where Spyderco knives are concerned. None are available in both steels, so unless you're buying a knife just to get a certain steel, rather than buying it because you like the knife, you really don't have a choice. At least that's how it is for me. VG-10 "wins", not necessarily because it's the "better" steel, but because it's the steel the knives I like the best use.
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JNewell
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#17

Post by JNewell »

Yes ^^^ I should have added above that even the greatest steel that has the best possible heat treat, grind and sharpening will be a lousy knife if the lock doesn't work well or easily and the handle doesn't fit/work well. We want great knives, not just great steel or even great blades. At least that's what I want...YMMV.
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unit
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#18

Post by unit »

Very good points posted here!

The only way I know to really compare them is with the Mule knives. That said, I feel that I can discern the critical differences with the knives in my collection.

I feel like VG-10 holds a very fine edge longer but will degrade to "dull" quicker than S30V. S30V seems to loose the very fine edge quicker but retains a usable edge longer than VG-10 before I really feel it is dull. Some might say that S30V "stabilizes" to a working edge.

It really depends a little on the sort of edge you like. I like (for many) tasks a very polished edge and believe VG-10 retains the benefits I seek in a highly polished edge better that S30V.

Uses, results, preferences, and opinions vary. There is no total looser here...both are very good.
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#19

Post by camokid »

unit wrote:Very good points posted here!

The only way I know to really compare them is with the Mule knives. That said, I feel that I can discern the critical differences with the knives in my collection.

I feel like VG-10 holds a very fine edge longer but will degrade to "dull" quicker than S30V. S30V seems to loose the very fine edge quicker but retains a usable edge longer than VG-10 before I really feel it is dull. Some might say that S30V "stabilizes" to a working edge.

It really depends a little on the sort of edge you like. I like (for many) tasks a very polished edge and believe VG-10 retains the benefits I seek in a highly polished edge better that S30V.

Uses, results, preferences, and opinions vary. There is no total looser here...both are very good.
Yes, that what I notice about S30v as well. Its kind of strange how s30v still wants to cut material eventhough by my definition it is considered a "dull" blade.

Its like the "lil engine that could" steel.
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#20

Post by SQSAR »

I too have noticed what some others have posted: That S30V looses that ultra-fine edge very quickly, while still being pretty darn sharp, and staying that way for a while. It does this (loses the fine edge quickly, and stays working sharp for a while) quicker that VG-10. Does anyone know why S30V looses this hair whittling edge quicker than VG-10 but stays working sharp longer? There has to be an explanation for this characteristic.

For me, both S30V and VG-10 are about equal, but that's because their strong points kind of balance one another. I really like the fact that VG-10 tends to keep the initial edge a little longer, and is a pleasure to both polish and bring to a razor's edge. Conversely, being a 'sharp-aholic,' I get a bit annoyed that S30V looses that initial edge so quickly, , , ,but really like how the good quality edge seems to have a lot of staying power.

In the end, if I like a knife design, and see it's made of either steel, , ,I know it will perform well. Come to think of it, I have equal numbers of both steels.
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