Spyderco Forums

I purchased two Titanium Military's at the very beginning of this year, and one of them has been my EDC since then and I really like that knife.

One reason I really like it, is its lock. The Reeve influenced frame lock is probably one of the strongest locks out there...especially when your handle is made from Titanium. When looking at the G10 version...or any other Military model, they all use a liner lock...how big of a difference is there between the liner lock of a G10 model and the frame lock of the TI model..in terms of overall lockup and strength??

Always meant to get on here and ask you guys some of these questions I have about the knife...just now getting around to it :D

It's not only a Reeve influenced lock, the framelock AKA Reeve Integral Lock was invented by Chris Reeve, doesn't matter if you call it a framelock, "MonoLock" or whatever, it's still a RIL.

Grego77 wrote:probably one of the strongest locks out there...especially when your handle is made from Titanium.

I would also like to debunk a common myth: stainless steel is generally stronger and more wear resistant than titanium, but Ti is lighter so Ti has a better strength/weight ratio, that's why it's so awesome. :cool:

But to the topic:
A lock is only as strong as it's weakest part, if you look at the end of the Ti lockbar there is a huge cutout, that is the weakest point of the lock, and it isn't really any thicker than the linerlock on the G10 version. The way the locks engages is also so similar that I don't feel it really make much of a difference. The real advantage of the RIL is the fact that your own grip puts pressure on the lock making it even harder to disengage. :D
If you use a knife correctly you're not going to have either lock fail on you as long as they're well made, and the Military's are more than well made. :p

The real advantage that the G10 version has over the Ti IMO is the added grip and lighter weight, without sacrificing any significant strength. But I do agree, Ti RILs are just hella cool! :eek:

Sal has said they designed the Ti Military lock to be equal in strength to the liner lock version, so to answer your question, there is no difference.

IMO the G10 version is vastly superior to the Ti version, but that's based on what I look for in a knife compared to their differences--light weight, a handle that has good grip, and a good price to performance ratio. The Ti version is 50% heavier, twice the price, the same steel, the same lock strength, slicker than G10, and absorbs coldness.

Part of the hype around CRK knives is that they're simple, making it easier to take them apart and clean them, but taking it apart voids Spyderco's warranty, and the press-fit lanyard tube makes it impossible to take fully apart anyway. Plus, now with the added lock insert, it's not that simple list of washers, handles, blade, and spacers.

One reason people like RILs over liner locks is the idea that using an RIL hard means one squeezes it into locking further whereas a liner lock doesn't do that, but I have never heard a story of someone's G10 Military closing on them. I suspect the idea liner locks fail under hard use is from the same source as the myth that 440c is bad; cheap import knives often come with bad liner locks, such as where the lock bar isn't flush with the blade tang or where the lock bar is way too thin. Spydercos, of course, don't have those problems .

Furthermore, if you think about it, when making hard cuts away from your body, you can end up twisting your wrist up. For right-handers, that means you're moving in a way that can put pressure on an RIL to unlock. A liner lock's lock bar, being protected on both sides by the handle, doesn't suffer this problem, whereas the cutout to ease unlocking the Ti version amplifies it.

Don't get me wrong; I have a Ti/M4 Military and two CRK Sebenzas and love all three knives. To me, though, the only reason the Ti S30v Military exists to to fill the RIL hype and not because it's better than the G10 version. But again, it's fully dependent upon your knife preferences. If you want a really good heavy knife, the Ti Military definitely fits the bill. The Military has been around so long for a reason :D

I bought a Ti Military recently and really like it.

But I prefer the G-10 or CF models to the Ti. With my CF I often grip the blade for fine work and the handle is so light I barely notice it. So the Ti has that one small disadvantage, extra weight, and the advantage of a regular grip that feels more secure as well as general coolness.

The Ti/G-10 M4 Military is the best of both worlds, and a great steel too. The G-10 side reduces weight and provides plenty of grip, while the Ti side provides the RIL. I'm not a big fan of metal handles, but I do really like the Ti/G-10 knives like the Chokwe and M4 Military.

I'm curious to see how the grip is on the fluted Ti Military.

As for the locks, I have total confidence in either lock. Spyderco does it right.

Thanks for all the replies. A few different perspectives. I will definately be picking up a G10 version when I can pick one up...and wont worry about it being a Liner Lock...I trust Spyderco.

I also, would like to try one of the new fluted TI versions.

Grego77 wrote:Thanks for all the replies. A few different perspectives. I will definately be picking up a G10 version when I can pick one up...and wont worry about it being a Liner Lock...I trust Spyderco.

I also, would like to try one of the new fluted TI versions.

Call my paranoid, but I don't trust any lock, no matter how great it is said to be. I do trust large choils, kicks (think Endura/Delica) and flippers, which make it virtually impossible for the knife to cut you if it closes accidentally.
I've actually become accustomed to closing all my back lock and Compression Lock knives by swinging the blade onto my index finger.
Other knives do better but the choil on the Military is just big enough for me to use the knife comfortably.

Grego77 wrote:When looking at the G10 version...or any other Military model, they all use a liner lock...how big of a difference is there between the liner lock of a G10 model and the frame lock of the TI model..in terms of overall lockup and strength??

I actually prefer the LL over RIL on the Military, is that good :)

the text below was posted by some guy over at the BF a while ago, don't have the actual link so take it for what its worth (just bear in mind this applies to the first generation of Millies)

/*Sal explained it particularly well (surprise!) at the NYC show. Let me try to paraphrase:

When you see other liner locks with those big, heavy, double liners, they give the impression of great strength, mostly due to their heft. Those liners are held in place, in most(every one I've seen) cases, by tiny pins. When closing force is applied to the blades of those knives, it is concentrated on those pins. The heavy steel, etc. becomes a moot issue, because as the closing force tries to rotate the lock out of the scale, the failure point of the lock is being determined by the failure point of those tiny pins. If they go, the lock goes.

With the nested liner, as the name implies, the lock is actually nested into the G-10 of the scale. Ergo, when closing force is applied to the lock, and it wants to rotate out of the scale, all the force is transferred to the scale itself. For this liner to fail (under closing pressure) the lock would have to burst through the side of the G-10. It's a matter of how the forces are dissipated. A suspension bridge can have a longer span than a conventional rigid one, an arch can support more than corbelling, etc.

It's a very elegant solution, and more high-tech, expensive and labor intensive than just pinning a couple of liners into the scales. I love explaining that to people who tell me that Spyderco underengineered the Military, by only giving it one liner. Now you can too.*/

Yes, a framelock is only as strong as its weakest link. Check the recess at the rear of the lockbar. Some are shockingly thin there.

phaust wrote:Sal has said they designed the Ti Military lock to be equal in strength to the liner lock version, so to answer your question, there is no difference. [...]

Could you provide a link/quote for that, please?

Cheers,

Keno

The G10/Ti Military limited run was really the cat's meow. If Sal would make a similar version with a stainless blade (Elmax, M390, CTS-20CP, or S90V) I'd be done looking for my hard-cutting EDC knife.

Elmax please.

I like my Ti Millie but I do think the Military excels in the G10 platform. I also think the Military is more a hard cutting knife than a hard use knife. In that connection, M390 at 61-62 would be nice. Or I'll take S110V at proper hardness too. :D

chuck_roxas45 wrote:M390 at 61-62 would be nice.

I couldn't agree more! M390 takes that super fine edge and seems to be an incredibly aggressive cutter even while polished. I would love to see a Military in M390 or CTS-204P (Carpenter's version).

+1 on the G-10 is the preferred platform sentiment.

And it seemed implied that S30V was NOT the preferred steel in this knife...if so, the I would like to add a hearty "+1" to that sentiment!

RIL vs. Liner....All those that have had either version of the Military lock fail, please state your name.



















Anyone?

















What was the question again?

unit wrote:And it seemed implied that S30V was NOT the preferred steel in this knife...

I might be in the minority, but I really like Spyderco's S30V prefer it to quite a few different steels. My S30V Military is one of my most sharpest knives, and I've put it through a ton.

But I could never say no to a Millie in a new steel. :D