What do you guys think of the Spyderco ball-bearing lock with respect to strength and longevity? Compared to the Benchmade Axis and other lock mechanisms?
Are there any lock types that you just aren't comfortable with?
Thanks and hope this turns into an interesting thread. ;-)
Chris
Let's talk locks ...
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dj moonbat
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The (C)BBL is at least as strong, but not as compact, as the Axis. Longevity is probably superior due to the choice of a coil spring vs. the omega shaped springs in the Axis.
Realistically, there are very few real-life activities that are going to push any of Spyderco's locks to failure. Same goes for other good makers' versions of those locks (lockback, linerlock, framelock, etc.)
Realistically, there are very few real-life activities that are going to push any of Spyderco's locks to failure. Same goes for other good makers' versions of those locks (lockback, linerlock, framelock, etc.)
"If you can't annoy somebody, there's little point in writing." — Kingsley Amis
Whoa buddy, who's "real life" are you talking about? Spine whacks for example are perfectly suitable lock failure tests in some people's mindsdj moonbat wrote:The (C)BBL is at least as strong, but not as compact, as the Axis. Longevity is probably superior due to the choice of a coil spring vs. the omega shaped springs in the Axis.
Realistically, there are very few real-life activities that are going to push any of Spyderco's locks to failure. Same goes for other good makers' versions of those locks (lockback, linerlock, framelock, etc.)
The lock debate gets raised quite often and has many forms....
I have never owned an axis lock but they seem to work quite well. I have owned several other lock types (Ball, mid-lock, lock-back, liner, RIL, bolt, compression, button, even a handful of "trick" or "mystery" locks). One overwhelming truth seems to prevail:
If the knife is made well and used sensibly, the locks do not fail.
In the grand scheme of things, all/any lock can fail...and if it fails at 500 pounds rather than 600 pounds does it matter? Especially if what you do to make it fail is a percussive movement instead of a static load? What evidence do we have that a lock that performs really well against a static load, will also perform well against repeated shocks (or vice versa)? I do not know the answers to these things...I think it is best to avoid shocks in the closing direction, and my wrist can not support enough to approach the static load needed to fail any current Spyderco lock (at least the ones I own).
Those are my thoughts on the topic. It is really tough to find any definitive answers to these questions, and much of the "testing" you will find amounts to goofs like me in my back yard hammering on stuff in a very non-scientific manner that is totally uncontrolled. Fun to watch, but be careful with the feelings of confidence (or doubt) that these things conjure...The movie Rambo taught me not to believe every video I see regarding knives.
I have never owned an axis lock but they seem to work quite well. I have owned several other lock types (Ball, mid-lock, lock-back, liner, RIL, bolt, compression, button, even a handful of "trick" or "mystery" locks). One overwhelming truth seems to prevail:
If the knife is made well and used sensibly, the locks do not fail.
In the grand scheme of things, all/any lock can fail...and if it fails at 500 pounds rather than 600 pounds does it matter? Especially if what you do to make it fail is a percussive movement instead of a static load? What evidence do we have that a lock that performs really well against a static load, will also perform well against repeated shocks (or vice versa)? I do not know the answers to these things...I think it is best to avoid shocks in the closing direction, and my wrist can not support enough to approach the static load needed to fail any current Spyderco lock (at least the ones I own).
Those are my thoughts on the topic. It is really tough to find any definitive answers to these questions, and much of the "testing" you will find amounts to goofs like me in my back yard hammering on stuff in a very non-scientific manner that is totally uncontrolled. Fun to watch, but be careful with the feelings of confidence (or doubt) that these things conjure...The movie Rambo taught me not to believe every video I see regarding knives.
Thanks,
Ken (my real name)
...learning something new all the time.
Ken (my real name)
...learning something new all the time.
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speedmaster
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Ha ha...I know what you mean. Probably 90% of the cuts I make are opening packages this time of year, and it is hardly a workout for any decent knife.speedmaster wrote: Most of the time I am either opening mail or boxes from Amazon, hardly tough stuff. ;-)
There are guys that work hard enough to defeat locks...and some of the stuff I do certainly would qualify...but in my 30 years of carrying a knife there have been VERY few instances that I was caught off guard and did not have a fixed blade available when I was going to do one of these tasks.
Locking blades are a very fun topic to explore. It is the collision of two ideals IMO: The cutting blade (which is one of the most primitive tools we have), attached to a highly technical bit of modern engineering and machining necessary for the pivot and lock....something for everyone :p
Thanks,
Ken (my real name)
...learning something new all the time.
Ken (my real name)
...learning something new all the time.
As long as I can't get the lock to fail with hand pressure, that's good enough for me.
A lock is as strong as it is designed to be, that is something the maker has direct control over. Longevity is a little harder to predict. Everything I've seen indicates the Ball Lock should be one of the best in that regard.
A lock is as strong as it is designed to be, that is something the maker has direct control over. Longevity is a little harder to predict. Everything I've seen indicates the Ball Lock should be one of the best in that regard.
Cannot Die Happy Without The Maxamet Yojumbo
I very much doubt that the BBL/CBL is as strong as an Axis lock. It does not present as great a risk of spring failure. The Axis springs break very, very infrequently, and the lock functions normally with only one of the two springs working. However, coil springs like those used in the BBL/CBL break even less frequently and this one would probably work even if it was broken.dj moonbat wrote:The (C)BBL is at least as strong, but not as compact, as the Axis. Longevity is probably superior due to the choice of a coil spring vs. the omega shaped springs in the Axis.
Realistically, there are very few real-life activities that are going to push any of Spyderco's locks to failure. Same goes for other good makers' versions of those locks (lockback, linerlock, framelock, etc.)
In real life, practical use, I think you're right. Very, very few of us are going to do things that will either suddenly break, or over the long term wear out, either of these locks. I'd focus more on whether the lock's ergos work well for you.
I guess it depends on how many have failed on you.
I personally can't even get most crappy $10 framelocks to fail so the idea of a Spyderco CBBL or BM Axis taking my fingers is a fantasy at best.
Buy the model you like the most and just deal with the lock that comes. I really like the compression lock and BBL but it has nothing to do with strength or peace of mind.
I personally can't even get most crappy $10 framelocks to fail so the idea of a Spyderco CBBL or BM Axis taking my fingers is a fantasy at best.
Buy the model you like the most and just deal with the lock that comes. I really like the compression lock and BBL but it has nothing to do with strength or peace of mind.
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LowSpeedHighDrag
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Ive never had a problem with my BM Axis locks, and I cant imagine having any problem with Spydercos BBLM. Frame locks, liner locks, axis locks, lock-backs etc. from a reputable company will rarely fail you.
My question to those that foresee using a folder like a fixed blade: why not use a small fixed blade knife? The Esee 3 and 4, even the Izula come to mind for good little fixed blades, dont even get me started on how much I love the F1. If your are batoning with a folder, youre doing yourself a disservice in my mind and pushing a knife way past its limits. You wouldnt expect a tack hammer to drive large nails into concrete, so dont expect your folder to hold up under serious abuse. But, if it does, like a CRKT and Endura have for me when Ive tested them, so be it.
I will say this, I brought a Byrd knife to complete failure while at Mtn Warfare Training in Bridgeport, Ca. We threw it, batoned with it, hammered with it, carved and whittled, dug in the dirt, and finally after the scale flew off and the blade tip broke, the lock failed....after 3 weeks of constant abuse. I brought the Byrd because I didnt want to lose my Millie, and was frankly impressed with how much abuse a little $20 chinese knife could withstand.
My question to those that foresee using a folder like a fixed blade: why not use a small fixed blade knife? The Esee 3 and 4, even the Izula come to mind for good little fixed blades, dont even get me started on how much I love the F1. If your are batoning with a folder, youre doing yourself a disservice in my mind and pushing a knife way past its limits. You wouldnt expect a tack hammer to drive large nails into concrete, so dont expect your folder to hold up under serious abuse. But, if it does, like a CRKT and Endura have for me when Ive tested them, so be it.
I will say this, I brought a Byrd knife to complete failure while at Mtn Warfare Training in Bridgeport, Ca. We threw it, batoned with it, hammered with it, carved and whittled, dug in the dirt, and finally after the scale flew off and the blade tip broke, the lock failed....after 3 weeks of constant abuse. I brought the Byrd because I didnt want to lose my Millie, and was frankly impressed with how much abuse a little $20 chinese knife could withstand.
MOLON LABE
I liked the BBL a lot more than i expected to. My only gripe is that it can't comfortably be operated with just your thumb. If that were doable it would've been 100% better. I have pretty big/strong hands but it just wasn't fluid enough to try to operate without my forefinger on the other side.
~David
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Monkeywrangler
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Personally I prefer the Axis lock to the CBBL on the Spydercos. I find it easier to operate one handed.
That aside, by far my favorite locks on Spydercos are the plain old Back Lock and the Compression lock.
My least favorites are the frame and liner locks. I don't like having my finger across the line of closure on frame and liner locks.
I have never used a folder to the point of lock failure, so the relative strengths of the different locks are less a point of sale for me, than the ease of use and apparent safety to me.
That aside, by far my favorite locks on Spydercos are the plain old Back Lock and the Compression lock.
My least favorites are the frame and liner locks. I don't like having my finger across the line of closure on frame and liner locks.
I have never used a folder to the point of lock failure, so the relative strengths of the different locks are less a point of sale for me, than the ease of use and apparent safety to me.
Not Forgotten:
LCpl. John Dewey Killen III
MSgt. Timothy Roy Bodden
Don't the sun look angry through the trees?
Don't the trees look like crucified thieves?
LCpl. John Dewey Killen III
MSgt. Timothy Roy Bodden
Don't the sun look angry through the trees?
Don't the trees look like crucified thieves?
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yablanowitz
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Knowing how each lock is constructed and how each transfers load, I'd have to debate that. The ball bearing and caged ball bearing locks have the potential to be at least as strong as the Axis lock. Whether a particular model of one actually is stronger than another would have to be tested on a case-by-case basis.JNewell wrote:I very much doubt that the BBL/CBL is as strong as an Axis lock. It does not present as great a risk of spring failure. The Axis springs break very, very infrequently, and the lock functions normally with only one of the two springs working. However, coil springs like those used in the BBL/CBL break even less frequently and this one would probably work even if it was broken.
In real life, practical use, I think you're right. Very, very few of us are going to do things that will either suddenly break, or over the long term wear out, either of these locks. I'd focus more on whether the lock's ergos work well for you.
That's my fault. The ball locks, like the Axis lock, pretty much demand tip up orientation to keep the clip from interfering with the lock release. I was never comfortable with carrying a knife with a weak closed detent and little closing bias tip up, so I complained to Sal and he used stronger springs to shut me up. :DEvil D wrote:I liked the BBL a lot more than i expected to. My only gripe is that it can't comfortably be operated with just your thumb. If that were doable it would've been 100% better. I have pretty big/strong hands but it just wasn't fluid enough to try to operate without my forefinger on the other side.
I don't believe in safe queens, only in pre-need replacements.
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dj moonbat
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This. The manufacturer decides on a lock strength, and then builds the knife to spec. That said, some locks withstand certain types of abuse better than others. For example, a loose pivot is more of a problem for linerlocks and RILs than, say, Axis and back locks.Joshua J. wrote: ... A lock is as strong as it is designed to be, that is something the maker has direct control over. ...
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dj moonbat
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Really, this (and I would add "ease of maintenance" to "ease of use," just for clarity). The really, really great thing about the Axis and similar locks, to me, isn't the strength -- tho the strength is admittedly awesome. It's the fact that it can be operated without interposing one of your precious digits in the path of the blade as it closes.Monkeywrangler wrote:I have never used a folder to the point of lock failure, so the relative strengths of the different locks are less a point of sale for me, than the ease of use and apparent safety to me.
"If you can't annoy somebody, there's little point in writing." — Kingsley Amis
Depending on the knife's construction, breaking a fixed blade is not all that improbable. The internet is full of "tests" in which FBs get broken. Again, whether that proves anything for your practical uses is a totally separate question. :DMy question to those that foresee using a folder like a fixed blade: why not use a small fixed blade knife?
The only lock I flat out did not like was the Kershaw Stud Lock.
Each locking style has pros and cons, however if it is well made and designed it should be safe for intended usages. As for the original question, I prefer the Axis lock to the CBL at this time. I trust the CBL, just more familiar with the Axis and find it easier to use.
Having been a knife "nut" for the better part of almost 25 years, I find the current state of knife "testing" to be almost comical. I will see knife reviews where the reviewer pretty much tries to destroy the lock and that is the extent of the test. No comment on ergonomics, cutting performance, edge retention. It is all about the lock, and can it be "destroyed."
Frankly a knife that won't cut, hold and edge, or will not allow you to use it for a long period of time is a pretty poor knife, regardless of how well the lock works.
Each locking style has pros and cons, however if it is well made and designed it should be safe for intended usages. As for the original question, I prefer the Axis lock to the CBL at this time. I trust the CBL, just more familiar with the Axis and find it easier to use.
Having been a knife "nut" for the better part of almost 25 years, I find the current state of knife "testing" to be almost comical. I will see knife reviews where the reviewer pretty much tries to destroy the lock and that is the extent of the test. No comment on ergonomics, cutting performance, edge retention. It is all about the lock, and can it be "destroyed."
Frankly a knife that won't cut, hold and edge, or will not allow you to use it for a long period of time is a pretty poor knife, regardless of how well the lock works.
i always find the topic amusing. i always imagine some guy on youtube beating on the spine of a nice folder and when it finally gives... wonder how many people are swayed. and think omg that must be a pos knife. the problem is most are likely pretty decent knives. used as intended. anyway i dont have a specific lock i like or dislike. look for good quality and overall design, then the lock is probubly good quality too.
my knives:
kershaw Leek Buck 119 Cold Steel Recon tanto
Cold Steel Ti Lite VI ,
Spyderco: Tenacious ,Persistence, Endura 4 blue Stretch zdp blue, Manix 2 ,Native s30v . Sage2 titanium, Gayle Bradly cpm m4, Muleteam mt 10, woodcraft mule s30v. Orange Delica 4
Bark River PSK 154cm, Gunny, Bravo 2, Canadian Special
kershaw Leek Buck 119 Cold Steel Recon tanto
Cold Steel Ti Lite VI ,
Spyderco: Tenacious ,Persistence, Endura 4 blue Stretch zdp blue, Manix 2 ,Native s30v . Sage2 titanium, Gayle Bradly cpm m4, Muleteam mt 10, woodcraft mule s30v. Orange Delica 4
Bark River PSK 154cm, Gunny, Bravo 2, Canadian Special