In re VG-10 / S30V

[dj moonbat]

I had not had cause to purchase a knife in many years. Recently, though, I got interested in upgrading my shabby knife collection.

First, once I caught on to the fact that Spyderco is plowing higher-grade materials into their production knives than anybody, I got a G-10 Dragonfly for my Dad, always a big knife guy. He flipped his lid. It's his money clip now.

After hearing him rave, I got an orange Urban for myself. It's outstanding.

What's amazing to me is that I've never had a stainless knife that I was able to get really, satisfactorily sharp before. I have some background in woodworking, and by contrast, the tool steels in chisel and plane blades always took wildly better edges than any of my kitchen or pocket knives.

VG-10, though, will take a real edge, and easily. The pads of my thumbs are toast. It seems, from the reviews, that VG-10 has better ductility/malleability than the other Super Steels (it folds rather than microchips when the edge fails).

I know that many of the knives I might want to buy over the next few ummm, well, soon, look like they have S30V blades instead. Will these knives make me feel like I used to -- a guy who just couldn't get a proper edge on a stainless steel?

[Jazz]

I haven't had any steel even remotely hard to sharpen on my double sided Norton stone.

- best wishes, Jazz.

[dsmegst]

For me, S30V seems to take a good edge, just as good as VG-10. But when I give it a really keen edge, it loses that sharpness fairly quickly. It will continue to cut for a long time, but I wish it would keep that initial sharpness longer.

[exParrot]

In short, no they will not.

CPM S30V is a premium forged steel developed specifically for knife making. Assuming it is well heat treated (and if you get a Spyderco it will be) S30V takes a great edge (albeit not quite as fine as VG10) and retains it extremely well.

It does take somewhat longer to sharpen than VG-10 due to its higher carbon and vanadium content, but the benefit is that it has superior edge retention.

Honestly, if you can sharpen VG 10 to the point where it easily slices the pads of your fingers, you will not have much trouble with S30V, especially if you touch it up regularly instead of letting it go dull.

[unit]

I think many people reach different conclusions base on their usage patterns, techniques, and expectations. You will have to try and see for yourself, but I am guessing that you will have (at least) good results sharpening S30V. The biggest problem I see people having with going from VG-10 to S30V is realizing that it is different.

The knowledge that VG-10 usually forms a burr after ## strokes on a side needs to be forgotten...the process of sharpening must be remembered. It may take more strokes to hone all the way to the edge, but the process is the same. Realize that the time required to do the job may be more...hopefully the benefits of the steel are worth it for your uses.

FWIW, I am not convinced that you can do much better than VG-10 for some tasks. S30V sure has its place too though!

[jezabel]

In recent months I have become very fond of of Vg10, mostly due to being able to keep the edge alive with stropping alone and it's tendency to roll rather than chip. Screaming sharp edges can be achieved with little effort.

While plenty of other users here seem to enjoy S30V. I have never warmed to it. I've never had any problem sharpening S30V, but it's tendency to chip when asked to perform anything other than light duty work has finally built up to the point with me that I no longer entertain the idea of purchasing any S30V blades anymore.... lucky for me that Spyderco does sprints in other excellent steels! :p CPM's D2, 440V, S90V and M4 have all served me very well.

Jez


Today's carry: Caly Jr

[markg]

One difference you will note, is that S30V will have a rougher 'toothy-er" edge than VG-10. In some cases this is a benefit. It will be as sharp as VG-10, but a toothy-er edge has a different feel when cutting, sort of like you can feel the cutting process better.

Chipping can be an issue with S30V, but it seems to go away with repeated sharpenings. And, I also think manufactures are getting used to the steel as I hear of it being less and less of an issue, then it used to be. Myself, I would rather have an edge chip than roll. You can still use a chipped edge where an edge that rolls can be a real issue.

VG-10 has a polished smooth edge, where S30V has a high tech feel to it. Hard to explain...

[Zoldner]

so markg, its almost like a micro-serration? the thing that comes to mind for me is the blade on the leatherman wave. it's really toothy but sharp

[npueppke]

One difference you will note, is that S30V will have a rougher 'toothy-er" edge than VG-10. In some cases this is a benefit. It will be as sharp as VG-10, but a toothy-er edge has a different feel when cutting, sort of like you can feel the cutting process better.

Chipping can be an issue with S30V, but it seems to go away with repeated sharpenings. And, I also think manufactures are getting used to the steel as I hear of it being less and less of an issue, then it used to be. Myself, I would rather have an edge chip than roll. You can still use a chipped edge where an edge that rolls can be a real issue.

VG-10 has a polished smooth edge, where S30V has a high tech feel to it. Hard to explain...

I think that this is a good point. I can't get knives really but I can get knives with either steel sharp enough to shave hair with some pressure. S30V cuts through paper like nothing though, while VG10 is much more likely to 'slide' off of the paper.

I also feel like I can get S30V sharp easier, but maybe they are just a different type of sharpness. S30V forms a burr which you can feel with the pad of your index finger no problem, but I find this really really hard to do on VG10. I use very little pressure when sharpening and usually use a the 40 degree slots with the white stones on my sharpmaker.

People who spend a lot of time stropping and have a different sharpening 'style' or more sharpening experience probably have a different opinion about the steels.

[markg]

so markg, its almost like a micro-serration? the thing that comes to mind for me is the blade on the leatherman wave. it's really toothy but sharp

Yea, that might be a good way to put it.

[LowTEC]

I have sharpen both steels extensively to free hand hair whittling level without any problem. If you find one steel can be sharper than the other type, it is not the steel, it's your sharpening. With that said, S30V has an edge with better abrasive resistance.

I also don't understand why people would prefer rolling than MICRO chipping.

If a blade is micro chipping, it can still cut very efficiently thru out the day other than push cutting; if a blade has rolled slightly, it can't cut anything without further rolling the edge. I would much rather stropping a micro chipping edge than a weaken re-straighten rolled edge

[dj moonbat]

I also don't understand why people would prefer rolling than MICRO chipping.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's the fact that I can FIX an edge without having to hit the stone. VG-10 strikes me as the perfect (stainless) steel for a person who has adopted the habits of a cook: putting the blade to a steel or a strop very regularly, rather than relying on edge retention.

[jezabel]

I also don't understand why people would prefer rolling than MICRO chipping.

It's pretty simple really, to repair a chip you must remove more metal from the blade, a rolled edge is much easier to salvage without necessarily having to remove any steel.

Jez

[unit]

I also don't understand why people would prefer rolling than MICRO chipping.

To understand why, you must first understand how people use and maintain their blades.

For a straight razor (a project I am starting on) the thought of MICRO chipping on my edge is unacceptable and can be hard to see. Rolling is easier for me to spot and quickly fix. Admittedly, neither type of damage is likely on a straight razor, but I fail to appreciate any "advantages" of S30V for this application. Edge retention need only be 5 minutes and the daily stropping is mandatory for removing scale/contaminants from the blade regardless of the steel selected.

For an EDC...honestly most days I do prefer S30V, but some days I know that I will be doing light work and VG-10 works well enough, but carries the benefit of quick maintenance with a strop, unless I really work it and damage the edge...in which case it is still usually light/quick work with fine media to restore the edge. S30V is great stuff, but I never can push back from the table in less time than VG-10 takes to hone.

I like doing "maintenance" on my blades, I do not enjoy regrinding the entire bevel as much. For a guy like me, VG-10 is a great fit. I am not like many perhaps, but spending 5 minutes inspecting my blade and doing a bit of maintenance is more desirable than spending the same amount of time (30 minutes) at the end of the week sitting over the stones.