New pivot system

[zvir]

Mr Blonde's video with some :spyder: -prototypes shows that Para-2 and Lightweight Manix 2 will have new pivot system - pivot slightly thicker then blade. WOW! This is very interesting for me, because i really like this kind of system on CRK Sebenza.
So, what models will be available with this innovation in nearest future? Is some of them available now at new US-made knives, such as Ti-Mili, Leaf Storm, Manix 2 FFG?

[The Deacon]

AFAIK, all versions of the Manix 2 have used that pivot from the beginning. Like everything else, it has its good and bad points. If there is any side-to-side blade play, and there have been reports of this, tightening the pivot screws does not help. The only way to eliminate the play is to file the shoulder of the pivot carefully.

[ROBB]

The only way to eliminate the play is to file the shoulder of the pivot carefully.

Deacon, can you explain what you mean by the shoulder of the pivot?

[rycen]

Have a look here

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... Manix+play

[The Deacon]

Have a look here

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... Manix+play

Yes! That thread explains it perfectly.

[gull wing]

I don't have one so I have a :
Question on the Pivot System.
Where are the Washers fitted? That is #1. Do they go "around" the Bushing(aka sleeve) and are compressed by the Blade, as in Sebenza. or #2. Do they go around the Pivot Pin and are comoressed by the Bushing.

[The Deacon]

I don't have one so I have a :
Question on the Pivot System.
Where are the Washers fitted? That is #1. Do they go "around" the Bushing(aka sleeve) and are compressed by the Blade, as in Sebenza. or #2. Do they go around the Pivot Pin and are comoressed by the Bushing.

I don't believe there is a sleeve. I believe the pivot is one piece, stepped. From the photos I've seen it appears the washers only go around the smaller diameter center of the pivot. They would thus either seat against the sides of the blade, or against the step on the pivot, depending on the relative thickness of the blade and the pivot's stepped section.

[JimP]

Whilst the pivot bushing system maybe good in theory, in practice it seems to just cause more problems(for me anyway).

Firstly it makes the knife extremely flickable out of the box with no way to tighten down the blade. Australian customs are enjoying quite a few knives these days :rolleyes: . So with more knives coming out with this pivot system, it is making import around the world a big gamble.

Secondly, we have lost all our blade control, not every one wants a blade that can fly open, I can't close my Manix 2 without the blade swinging shut like a bear trap and usually with a bit of blade bounce(one handed closing) and I have no way of changing that easily.

Lastly, no way of controlling blade play, so many more threads are going to be started due to peoples inability to merely turn a torx to eliminate blade play easily.

So Spydie crew if you are listening, I would be happy if you got rid of the pivot bushing and went back to the good ol' reliable adjustable pivot.

This is just one mans view and with so many good spydies coming out, potentially with this new pivot system I wanted all to be aware of the potential issues that can and will arise.

[gull wing]

Thanks Deacon.
Well, as any "bushing type " pivot system, pieces must be held in VERY close Tolerance
or you end up with a short list of problems.

[zvir]

Wow, I didn't know about those problems Thank you for clarification! I hope Spyderco will handle with it very soon.

[The Deacon]

Wow, I didn't know about those problems Thank you for clarification! I hope Spyderco will handle with it very soon.

It's not so much a problem as a trade off, like most things. It is stronger, and ultra reliable because you can locktite and tighten down the screws with no fear of creating excessive drag. But it's not a panacea for horizontal blade play.

Do wonder if anyone has experimented with finding some of those ultra thin plastic film type washers with a large enough hole to go around the central portion of the pivot. To my way of thinking, that would be another, somewhat easier, way to cure the play,

[jezabel]

Paul, as you've noted the Manix 2 bushing system is stepped, FWIW recently on disassembly of the GB I noticed that this uses a sleeved bushing and is not stepped in any way. It looks like we have two types of bushings being used in production now...

Jez

[LorenzoL]

I prefer the one on the Bradley.
On the other hand, I do not understand what this kind of pivot is supposed to add to the time-proven design of a non-rotating pivot on one side (say, thanks to a flat) held in place by a screw on the other side.

[yablanowitz]

Repeatability. When you take the knife apart and put it back together, you just tighten the screws all the way and you are back to exactly the way it was before you started. If it was perfect before, it will be perfect again. That's what people keep telling me is so wonderful about the CRK Sebenza. In reality, what is so wonderful about the Sebbie is the precision machining that makes the system work. It is also what makes them so expensive.

[JNewell]

Agreed on all below - but one of the things that Sal has commented on, and I think we've observed as users, is that the capabilities in Golden have steadily improved to the point where they may be very near the kind of precision repeatability that has traditionally been the AO for smaller, semi-production/semi-custom cutlers like CRK. Sure, we read the occasional post about a Manix 2 with some sideplay, but relative to production volume these seem to be very insignificant. There's great stuff going on in Golden, for sure.

Repeatability. When you take the knife apart and put it back together, you just tighten the screws all the way and you are back to exactly the way it was before you started. If it was perfect before, it will be perfect again. That's what people keep telling me is so wonderful about the CRK Sebenza. In reality, what is so wonderful about the Sebbie is the precision machining that makes the system work. It is also what makes them so expensive.

[LorenzoL]

But on the other hand it is nice to be able to compensate for wear over time, or even adapt the pivot's resistance to one's taste/local laws.

[The Deacon]

Paul, as you've noted the Manix 2 bushing system is stepped, FWIW recently on disassembly of the GB I noticed that this uses a sleeved bushing and is not stepped in any way. It looks like we have two types of bushings being used in production now...

Jez

Wasn't aware of that, guess they're trying a number of new things.

But on the other hand it is nice to be able to compensate for wear over time, or even adapt the pivot's resistance to one's taste/local laws.

True, it's one of those "nothing makes everyone happy" situations. There have been requests for "better" pivots for a while. Now folks at least have a choice, though some will of course complain that the model they like the most has the pivot they like least. Me, I still prefer pinned construction - allows a smoother look and eliminates all risk of screws loosening and falling out.

As for the Manix and Bradley pivots, in theory, since the washers are the only thing that should wear, you should be able to compensate by adding thin shim washers. Granted, it's not as easy, but it's a solution.

[Blerv]

Has anyone experienced a Manix2 with blade play? Mine is somewhat flickable but the detent pressure is very secure and the lock is of course bulletproof.

Fora large tactical knife it's a great solution. You can't tighten it into a Slipit but it's not the purpose for 99% of the audience. It's a big rugged knife and still far from most "gravity knife" definitions.

There is always the Gayle Bradley and original Manix/Para. Sometimes the secondary and custom market is the answer for the niche.

[JNewell]

If you want to see how hard it is to make people happy on this point, go to the CRK subforum at BF and read the Sebenza vs Umnumzaan threads.

[SaturnNyne]

Has anyone experienced a Manix2 with blade play?

Yes! Unfortunately. My friend bought a Manix2 as soon as they came out, I tried it out and found it to be absolutely rock solid and great, so I immediately got one too. When mine arrived, I was disappointed to find that, while it was completely solid vertically, it had a large amount of lateral play. It's loose enough that when I grab the handle and blade to test for it I can hear it softly rattling back and forth. It's also loose enough that tapping the blade while closed (or bumping the handle against the hand) creates a loud tapping noise as the blade bangs against one of the liners. Then my friend got another, one of the Carpenter M2s, which has at least as much play as mine. So that's two out of three Manix2s that I've tested and found to be wobbly to a degree I think is unacceptable.

Whilst the pivot bushing system maybe good in theory, in practice it seems to just cause more problems(for me anyway).

Firstly it makes the knife extremely flickable out of the box with no way to tighten down the blade. Australian customs are enjoying quite a few knives these days :rolleyes: . So with more knives coming out with this pivot system, it is making import around the world a big gamble.

Secondly, we have lost all our blade control, not every one wants a blade that can fly open, I can't close my Manix 2 without the blade swinging shut like a bear trap and usually with a bit of blade bounce(one handed closing) and I have no way of changing that easily.

Lastly, no way of controlling blade play, so many more threads are going to be started due to peoples inability to merely turn a torx to eliminate blade play easily.

So Spydie crew if you are listening, I would be happy if you got rid of the pivot bushing and went back to the good ol' reliable adjustable pivot.

This is just one mans view and with so many good spydies coming out, potentially with this new pivot system I wanted all to be aware of the potential issues that can and will arise.

QFT, I completely agree with all of that. Mine opens with just the force of gravity, bounces when flicked closed too quickly, and doesn't feel high quality when tested (though it still works fine, of course).

Agreed on all below - but one of the things that Sal has commented on, and I think we've observed as users, is that the capabilities in Golden have steadily improved to the point where they may be very near the kind of precision repeatability that has traditionally been the AO for smaller, semi-production/semi-custom cutlers like CRK.

I think the company must have a legitimate reason for thinking it a good idea to go with a system like this and I respect that; they know their capabilities better than I do. However, from my perspective as just an end user who has encountered one (really excellent) success and two failures in the manufacturing precision for this pivot, it makes it seem like they're not quite there yet. It makes me not a fan of these pivots and a little wary of getting any more models that use them. I sure hope they do get a handle on the problems soon so I can change that opinion. I hope I eventually get my particular knife fixed too, I really want to get more use out of it.

Fora large tactical knife it's a great solution. You can't tighten it into a Slipit but it's not the purpose for 99% of the audience. It's a big rugged knife and still far from most "gravity knife" definitions.

But on the other hand it is nice to be able to compensate for wear over time, or even adapt the pivot's resistance to one's taste/local laws.

That's my problem, complying with local laws. I no longer carry my M2, despite it being one of the best designs I've ever had, because it flops open under gravity alone as soon as the lock is released, which I feel is too close to the definition of a gravity knife for my comfort.


If anyone is curious and wants to comment on how their M2s compare to mine, I made a quick video of how freely it swings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixwAeZpANXE

Sorry it's so dark. This was a first attempt I tried kind of spontaneously a few months ago when I contacted the company about it, but when they responded that they didn't want to help me repair it myself and wanted the knife shipped to them, I decided I didn't want to take the time to correct the problem right now and somewhat forgot about it, never bothered making a better video.