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I'm not quite grasping the concept to this idea. If someone could explain it i'd appreciate it

Try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening

Bend an iron nail back and forth. It bends nicely at first, but soon becomes brittle, and snaps off. This is due to "work-hardening". After it starts getting hard, if you heat it to a high enough temperature (perhaps a dull red?), then let it cool slowly, it will be soft (ductile) again. I think many (most?) metals do this.

The upper surface of a railroad rail becomes hardened by the repeated weight/pressure of the cars.

Pete

so the more i sharpen the h-1 steel the harder it gets but the more brittle the edge will be makes sense

To my knowledge, think of it as compressing the mollecules more and more over time....more densly packed edge can be tougher. The more and more you use it, the more and more you compress the grain together. Over time, they will reach a point where they cant compress any further, thus reaching a point of "work hardened" state. Its the way I look at it. Hope this helps Vash, im no expert on this matter by any stretch of the imagination, but It helps me when i think of it this way.

For a good explanation of the different molecular structures of steel (cementite/austenite/martensite) and how they shift from one to the other, see the current edition of "Knife World."

well it would appear mr janich had my answer all along i figured ed would chime in but i think ed chimed in to micheal either way i got my answer thans padawan and everyone else that replied i also read pretty much the whole wiki thing about work hardening i hope to make custom knives one day when i have disposable income that isn't taken up by spyderco HA like that'll ever happen not that i'm complaining keep the good knives and GOOD STEEL coming those crafty japanese

Thanks for the link saipan59, very informative.

It should be noted that work hardening is not "compressing" the steel. It's more of a re-organizing.
Think about the iron atoms in steel as though they were people in a room. Normally they all have their place and are quite happy to be there, everything is in balance. If you move one of them out of their place, they invade the space of the one beside them, who in turn has to move a little, thus invading the space of more molecular people, all of whom must move in order to maintain their personal space.
When moved out of their preferred spot in relation to the people around them, it builds relational stress, which would represent the forces that hold atoms together (way beyond me), and the people become more resistant to the idea of moving.
The more disorganized the people are, the more stressed they become.
A work hardened steel would be a very messy room full of unhappy people.

Joshua J. wrote:The more disorganized the people are, the more stressed they become.
A work hardened steel would be a very messy room full of unhappy people.

What a great analogy! With that in mind, anyone wishing to visualize this work-hardening metaphor is welcome to attend my next family reunion...

Stay safe,

Mike

Joshua J. wrote:Thanks for the link saipan59, very informative.

It should be noted that work hardening is not "compressing" the steel. It's more of a re-organizing.
Think about the iron atoms in steel as though they were people in a room. Normally they all have their place and are quite happy to be there, everything is in balance. If you move one of them out of their place, they invade the space of the one beside them, who in turn has to move a little, thus invading the space of more molecular people, all of whom must move in order to maintain their personal space.
When moved out of their preferred spot in relation to the people around them, it builds relational stress, which would represent the forces that hold atoms together (way beyond me), and the people become more resistant to the idea of moving.
The more disorganized the people are, the more stressed they become.
A work hardened steel would be a very messy room full of unhappy people.

I feel enlightened. Thanks Josh.

I think invading the spaces of the molecules beside them, could be thought of as a form of compression, and the people becomming more resistant to the idea of moving can be likened to a point where they cant compress anymore. So I kinda think I got it, but yours does sounds way better than mine! LOL.

Donovan808 wrote:I feel enlightened. Thanks Josh.

I think invading the spaces of the molecules beside them, could be thought of as a form of compression, and the people becomming more resistant to the idea of moving can be likened to a point where they cant compress anymore. So I kinda think I got it, but yours does sounds way better than mine! LOL.

One of the points metallurgists usually try to make a little more clear is that steel cannot be compressed, ever. When one atom is moved the others move an equal amount. the hardening of the material has to do with the bond between atoms and their arrangement. If I had studied quantum physics I might be able to say more on the subject. For now I'll have to leave it at that.

Joshua J. wrote:One of the points metallurgists usually try to make a little more clear is that steel cannot be compressed, ever. When one atom is moved the others move an equal amount. the hardening of the material has to do with the bond between atoms and their arrangement. If I had studied quantum physics I might be able to say more on the subject. For now I'll have to leave it at that.

Im not trying to make this at all a "thing" but explain to me, maybe in a PM if you should feel so, how a bar stock bieng Rockwell tested, with the diamond "punch" for lack of a better term, doesnt deform the oposite side of the bar stock with an equally shaped but opposingly relieved "diamond" shaped area? Is it because the air in between the molecules are bieng compressed, or squeezed out? I think were talking apples and oranges to a degree, where your talking atomic level and im talking grain. In retrospect, I should have said grain instead of molecules :P Im not an expert by any means, and do not mean this in a hostile or quibbish way, I just would like a more clear understanding about this topic.

Donovan808 wrote:Im not trying to make this at all a "thing" but explain to me, maybe in a PM if you should feel so, how a bar stock bieng Rockwell tested, with the diamond "punch" for lack of a better term, doesnt deform the oposite side of the bar stock with an equally shaped but opposingly relieved "diamond" shaped area? Is it because the air in between the molecules are bieng compressed, or squeezed out? I think were talking apples and oranges to a degree, where your talking atomic level and im talking grain. In retrospect, I should have said grain instead of molecules :P Im not an expert by any means, and do not mean this in a hostile or quibbish way, I just would like a more clear understanding about this topic.

Rather than trying to use my own words, I'll let the writing I learned from speak for itself.
Read up!

http://www.cashenblades.com/articles/lowdown.html

http://swordforum.com/metallurgy/ites.html

http://www.cashenblades.com/info_index.html

Thanks Dude.

well it seems this thread proved to be pretty helpful for more than just me

well i'm about to find out a little more about worked hardened steel just ordered my 3rd H-1 Knife the spyderco Ed Schemp ROCK SALT

VashHash wrote:well i'm about to find out a little more about worked hardened steel just ordered my 3rd H-1 Knife the spyderco Ed Schemp ROCK SALT

Be prepared to be blown away. That knife has the most comfortable handle ever. It just melts in your hand like you were born to use it.
With one minor adjustment, you might want to dull the point at the top of the thumb ramp. When you rest your thumb on the spine of the blade it digs in a little.
Other than that, it's perfect.
(well ok, I don't like the re-curve either, but it's only a little one)