Spyderco Sage 2 Titanium/cPM-S30V...$150 Titanium Folder Made in Taiwan?! What's up?

[Zac]

So I've been eying up the Sage Titanium series for a little while as I love Titanium frame lock folders. Knowing the knife was made overseas in Taiwan made me skeptical about quality control, durability, and value. Upon getting a Ti-Sage, I realized the fear I have is nothing more than my own prejudices and is not founded with any real facts. The knife carries quality levels that are about as nice as any production knife can be. The hesitation to spend $150+ on a folder made overseas seems to be a major concern of many people and I would like to offer my 2 cents on the argument in the view of someone who studies culture. Please realize many different views exist on the topic but I am trying to shed a little light on the topic from a very different perspective and hopefully show you that the Taiwan Titanium Sage carries a quality level approaching a Chris Reeve Sebenza.

Why do we equate products of Taiwan with being crappy anyway? They simply are a manufacturing country and they produce goods of differing quality levels from complete crap to top notch. Their economy is primarily based upon making tangible items where as ours is made of producing intellectual property. Many people of the 'Far East' have a much better work ethic than Westerners and take great pride in what they produce. Many Westerners can't wait till the clock hits 5 and out we go without a care in the world as to progress. In many Eastern areas, work is one of the most important attributes of society and being good at what you do is important and respectable.

Why do we question the competency of others when it comes to knife making? The East has been making objects of metal for much longer than the West, and much of the art of knifemaking comes from many different areas of the East. In theory, they are more experienced than anywhere else in the world and they have helped pioneer modern knives as they are today. Most students who have 1) the want to learn and 2) a good instructor can become a master of a trade. If any of the popular knifemakers, production or custom, wanted to produce a knife anywhere, it would obviously mean that formal and informal education would occur if they wanted ANYONE from ANYWHERE to assist AT ALL. Why do we think that non Westerners are somehow less competent? I've been guilty of doing this myself. We criticize China when lead winds up in toys and then act as if we don't do stuff like that here on just as frequent of a basis. America and Europe have both been home to some very, very poor work conditions and have produced some very dangerous and deadly products. There are no physical, genetic, scientific or social reasons as to why someone in a different country cannot learn the art of knifemaking. Like most jobs, it is a skill that can be taught, learned and passed on. Perhaps Spyderco went to Taiwan because they found more dedicated employees who were willing to do whatever was necessary to be sure that the knives they produce are tip-top. Maybe the machinery used to work titanium is less expensive to run as titanium is an expensive element when not machined. When machined and treated, it gets even pricier. As far as ethics when conducting business in international and '3rd world countries', I have no doubts that the people involved in making the Spyderco-Taiwan knives are being treated well with good working conditions and given a fair, livable wage. I say this with such confidence due to Spyderco's positive and fair work ethic and overall method of doing business. You can tell a lot about how a company conducts itself and the people at Spyderco would not exploit others. Many of the best knifemakers in the world come from different geographical locations. By having knifemakers from across the globe, we see such a unique variety of designs, finishes, and guiding philosophies.

Finally, there is the ole' argument about stealing jobs from American workers. I can't tell you what to believe on this but the entire world is in an economic recession and times are hard for everyone. The people who were given the job of making these knives were probably in just as bad a financial situation as you and me.

Now, remember that with the recession, $300 is a lot more now for many people than a few years ago. Look at virtually ALL titanium folders with the Reeve Integral Lock or similar design. Lets consider the: Chris Reeve Sebenza, Umfaan and Umnumzaan, Bradley Mahem, Benchmade Skirmish, Spyderco Titanium ATR (slightly different lock and titanium finish but same overall concept), all Striders, all high end Zero Tolerance and many custom blades. Almost all of these knives carry a street price of $200 and up. With these knives, the sky is the limit for price and most as well above $200. The Ti-Sage is probably the only folder with similar attributes to the Sebenza which is actually affordable. The Titanium handle is from what I have been told difficult, frustrating and expensive to do right and it often takes multiple go-rounds. If this knife was not made in Taiwan where the cost of living and the average salary is less than the USA or Europe, I highly doubt that many of us would be able to afford this knife. So, the Ti-Sage is a well traveled knife which carries a fit and finish which most production knives cannot match. They have a quality standard which is top notch and by using slightly non-traditional manufacturing techniques for a ti-handled blade, they have produced a titanium handle knife with premium S30V steel for about half the price of other folders. I am not going to review this knife as many people here have made great writeups so all I am going to say is if you think that the quality of this knife suffers due to place of origin, think again. Spyderco would not sell a higher end knife if it did not deliver higher end performance and finish. I'm proud to own my cultured Ti-Sage and I appreciate the process that has gone into this knife very much. It is a fantastic design and will become one of my smaller EDCs. In this case, the most important thing I can say is: "don't knock it till you tried it". Thanks to Spyderco for the great knife!

My 2 cents. If you disagree, that is completely fine and let me know why in a civil manner please. Thanks! :)

[The Mastiff]

When I was young talking about something being "made in Japan" was derogatory. It took a long time for that change to what it is now, a compliment. Change it did though.

We are seeing that with Taiwan, Korea, and yes, China too. China has the most work to do, and they are their own worst enemy here. It's still not prudent to use food prodyucts, or pharmecuticals from China yet. Heck, They are responsible foir killing thousand of american pets with their pet food additives.

Yet they can build computers, fighter jets, and spacecraft. They can also build great knives, as Sal has shown.

Taiwan has some of the most modern production facilities in the world, and a skilled workforce. Korea even more so.

When I see made in Taiwan on a knife it troubles me not one bit. Any of the above countries can put out a great product. I do think the greatest downside to making products in china even isn't quality. it's more a almost certainty that your product will be shared with whatever plant makes it for you. As Deacon has pointed out the concept of intellectual property rights eludes them to put it politely.

[Toad310]

Why do we equate products of Taiwan with being crappy anyway? They simply are a manufacturing country and they produce goods of differing quality levels from complete crap to top notch. Their economy is primarily based upon making tangible items where as ours is made of producing intellectual property. Many people of the 'Far East' have a much better work ethic than Westerners and take great pride in what they produce. Many Westerners can't wait till the clock hits 5 and out we go without a care in the world as to progress. In many Eastern areas, work is one of the most important attributes of society and being good at what you do is important and respectable.



My 2 cents. If you disagree, that is completely fine and let me know why in a civil manner please. Thanks! :)

Sorry, my friend, you need to research this topic.

[Daniel]

It is a well made knife regardless of where it is made.

However, it does make a difference where products are manufactured on how it affects our economy.

Since this is not a political or economic forum, I will say no more on this subject.

[FLYBYU44]

Sorry, my friend, you need to research this topic.

I beg to differ, he pretty much is right on with that topic. Work ethic in the West is at an all time low right now and nobody seems to care about their work. There are exceptions to that statement, but they are just that, exceptions.

[LorenzoL]

Sorry, my friend, you need to research this topic.

Or, more likely, you do. I pretty much agree with everything the OP said.
I also think it is unfair to hold a knife company like Spyderco to a different standard than, say, an electronics company like Apple, that makes all its products in Asia.

[Sam Vimes]

Knowing a fella that imports products made in China I know that they will make products to whatever standard, and price, you specify. Naturally, this will be reflected in the price of the item and the potential profit. I'll bet that Spyderco makes less of a margin on their Taiwanese or Chinese made knives than many other makers do. The quality is better than the opposition yet the prices aren't much, if at all, higher.
I can well understand some of the patriotism displayed on this place from the American posters, it's actually quite refreshing. However, it does start to smack of jingoism at times. Slightly hypocritical too when the folks that decry Taiwanese or Chinese product are often perfectly happy with Japanese made stuff. :confused:

[The Deacon]

Pays to remember that tang stamps on knives can also be extremely misleading. The Sage is built in Taiwan, from US materials. There are knives which say "Made in USA" and "Made in Japan" which, in reality, were merely assembled here or there from parts imported from China, South Korea, Taiwan, and elsewhere. Those parts in turn, may have been made with material from countries held in even lower esteem.

For that matter, which is more "American", a Sage, or a knife labeled "Made in USA" which combines Swedish or Japanese blade steel with Chinese G-10?

[sal]

Thank you Zac.

And thanx as well to the other comments, even those that do not agree.

As mentioned, this is not a political forum, so knives are the issue.

Since it is Eric, Gail and I that that frequently travel to these and other countries worldwide (4-6 times per year) and it is Eric, Gail and I that visit the makers and try to teach them our standards and mfg methods, and it is Eric, Gail and I that decide who to work with and who not to work with; if you would really like to be educated in this area, I guess I can do it off topic.

But please remember, if you have not been to these countries, and visited their factories and really know of which you opine, the value of your opinion may be considered ignorant, and you are merely repeating the opinions of others who may be just as ignorant in these issues.

I don't mind sharing my personal experiences and philosophies and I don't mind teaching those that care to learn. I do not wish to argue with those that know little of which they speak.

It is only in America that I hear the expression "Don't work too hard". In other "lesser" countries, they say, "Work hard, be successful".

sal

[Fred Sanford]

Just a good thread I wanted to bring back up.

Reason being is that I've never been to any of the countries and in the past I've been harsh on the companies and thought they made crap. Mind you that this mindset was before 2005 and that was when I got into knives.

Since 2005 until now I've realized that we as a world, are advanced enough to make good stuff just about anywhere in the world. We have quite a bit of stuff that has poor quality control right here in the US. I've seen things made in China or Taiwan that just as good, and most times better than something made in the USA.

I think all countries are very capable of making something with fantastic Fit and Finish. I just recently got a Sage II and was absolutely blown away at what an amazing knife this is.

As Paul (The Deacon) said in another thread, I think the Sage was "Taiwan's coming of age" so to speak. It's a darn good knife with great fit and finish. Better fit and finish than a few Golden models and some Seki models.

....It is only in America that I hear the expression "Don't work too hard". In other "lesser" countries, they say, "Work hard, be successful".

sal

Yeah that's true. I never thought about that. Some days I'm not so sure that they are "lesser".

[jabba359]

IIRC, Sal mentioned in another thread that Spyderco doesn't really save any money by having the Sages made in Taiwan (due to the expense of shipping the sheets of S30V and other components overseas and then back). Mostly what it boils down to is that this company in Taiwan had the capacity, ability, and quality to deliver the product that Spyderco requires. I'm sure that if an American company could have met those requirements, Sal would have used them. As the saying goes, "May the best man win."

[EnduringEagle]

So I've been eying up the Sage Titanium series for a little while as I love Titanium frame lock folders. Knowing the knife was made overseas in Taiwan made me skeptical about quality control, durability, and value. Upon getting a Ti-Sage, I realized the fear I have is nothing more than my own prejudices and is not founded with any real facts. The knife carries quality levels that are about as nice as any production knife can be. The hesitation to spend $150+ on a folder made overseas seems to be a major concern of many people and I would like to offer my 2 cents on the argument in the view of someone who studies culture. Please realize many different views exist on the topic but I am trying to shed a little light on the topic from a very different perspective and hopefully show you that the Taiwan Titanium Sage carries a quality level approaching a Chris Reeve Sebenza.

Why do we equate products of Taiwan with being crappy anyway? They simply are a manufacturing country and they produce goods of differing quality levels from complete crap to top notch. Their economy is primarily based upon making tangible items where as ours is made of producing intellectual property. Many people of the 'Far East' have a much better work ethic than Westerners and take great pride in what they produce. Many Westerners can't wait till the clock hits 5 and out we go without a care in the world as to progress. In many Eastern areas, work is one of the most important attributes of society and being good at what you do is important and respectable.

Why do we question the competency of others when it comes to knife making? The East has been making objects of metal for much longer than the West, and much of the art of knifemaking comes from many different areas of the East. In theory, they are more experienced than anywhere else in the world and they have helped pioneer modern knives as they are today. Most students who have 1) the want to learn and 2) a good instructor can become a master of a trade. If any of the popular knifemakers, production or custom, wanted to produce a knife anywhere, it would obviously mean that formal and informal education would occur if they wanted ANYONE from ANYWHERE to assist AT ALL. Why do we think that non Westerners are somehow less competent? I've been guilty of doing this myself. We criticize China when lead winds up in toys and then act as if we don't do stuff like that here on just as frequent of a basis. America and Europe have both been home to some very, very poor work conditions and have produced some very dangerous and deadly products. There are no physical, genetic, scientific or social reasons as to why someone in a different country cannot learn the art of knifemaking. Like most jobs, it is a skill that can be taught, learned and passed on. Perhaps Spyderco went to Taiwan because they found more dedicated employees who were willing to do whatever was necessary to be sure that the knives they produce are tip-top. Maybe the machinery used to work titanium is less expensive to run as titanium is an expensive element when not machined. When machined and treated, it gets even pricier. As far as ethics when conducting business in international and '3rd world countries', I have no doubts that the people involved in making the Spyderco-Taiwan knives are being treated well with good working conditions and given a fair, livable wage. I say this with such confidence due to Spyderco's positive and fair work ethic and overall method of doing business. You can tell a lot about how a company conducts itself and the people at Spyderco would not exploit others. Many of the best knifemakers in the world come from different geographical locations. By having knifemakers from across the globe, we see such a unique variety of designs, finishes, and guiding philosophies.

Finally, there is the ole' argument about stealing jobs from American workers. I can't tell you what to believe on this but the entire world is in an economic recession and times are hard for everyone. The people who were given the job of making these knives were probably in just as bad a financial situation as you and me.

Now, remember that with the recession, $300 is a lot more now for many people than a few years ago. Look at virtually ALL titanium folders with the Reeve Integral Lock or similar design. Lets consider the: Chris Reeve Sebenza, Umfaan and Umnumzaan, Bradley Mahem, Benchmade Skirmish, Spyderco Titanium ATR (slightly different lock and titanium finish but same overall concept), all Striders, all high end Zero Tolerance and many custom blades. Almost all of these knives carry a street price of $200 and up. With these knives, the sky is the limit for price and most as well above $200. The Ti-Sage is probably the only folder with similar attributes to the Sebenza which is actually affordable. The Titanium handle is from what I have been told difficult, frustrating and expensive to do right and it often takes multiple go-rounds. If this knife was not made in Taiwan where the cost of living and the average salary is less than the USA or Europe, I highly doubt that many of us would be able to afford this knife. So, the Ti-Sage is a well traveled knife which carries a fit and finish which most production knives cannot match. They have a quality standard which is top notch and by using slightly non-traditional manufacturing techniques for a ti-handled blade, they have produced a titanium handle knife with premium S30V steel for about half the price of other folders. I am not going to review this knife as many people here have made great writeups so all I am going to say is if you think that the quality of this knife suffers due to place of origin, think again. Spyderco would not sell a higher end knife if it did not deliver higher end performance and finish. I'm proud to own my cultured Ti-Sage and I appreciate the process that has gone into this knife very much. It is a fantastic design and will become one of my smaller EDCs. In this case, the most important thing I can say is: "don't knock it till you tried it". Thanks to Spyderco for the great knife!

My 2 cents. If you disagree, that is completely fine and let me know why in a civil manner please. Thanks! :)

I am sure that the quality control is fine as Spyderco does put their name on them. That being equal what is happening is that this is not made in the USA therefore money is being shipped out of the country as well as jobs. I support Spyderco but will ONLY buy the products that are made here in the USA.

[The Deacon]

I am sure that the quality control is fine as Spyderco does put their name on them. That being equal what is happening is that this is not made in the USA therefore money is being shipped out of the country as well as jobs. I support Spyderco but will ONLY buy the products that are made here in the USA.

Your money, your choice. You'll miss out on some **** fine knives, but that's your privilege.

[LorenzoL]

My favorite Spydercos are made in Taiwan.

[Gibsoniam]

It is only in America that I hear the expression "Don't work too hard". In other "lesser" countries, they say, "Work hard, be successful".

sal

Sadly, this was not always the case with American workers. I'm 37 and have seen a rapid decline in work ethic just in my 20 years of being in the workforce. And I'm well aware that the decline was already in full swing before I got my first job.

On a cheerier note:

Sal, YOUR ethics (and by extension, those of Spyderco) are the main reason 99% of my knives are Spyderco. Not that other brands are without ethics, but you have always been vocal and above reproach in your statements and actions, as far as I've seen.

I appreciate that as much as the time, innovation, and effort that go into your products.

[ChrisR]

I find it strange that some people will only buy the knives Spyderco makes in the US ... I mean, the wages of Spyderco staff are paid from the company's funds - not just the money they get from US-made knives. Making at home is always desirable but I think if Spyderco only sold US-made knives they would be making less money over all. The Far-East-made knives fill a niche in the market that Spyderco cannot reach with US-made knives and it makes the company more profitable and able to employ more people. It just wouldn't be possible to make high-quality knives in the US for the price-point that Chinese factories can hit.

I say buy 'em and enjoy 'em - they're damned good knives and you're supporting a great company :)

[sal]

Hi Eagle,

We are constantly improving and growing our USA factory so we can best serve those that prefer USA made.

sal

[Blerv]

You certainly have to pick your battles. Politics and religion are two things that seldom go well at the dinner table :) .

Still, the freedom of America means you can make that decision yourself. It's great to hear that Golden's plant is expanding and they are still focused on keeping jobs flowing state-side. At the very least when they do build a knife in another country they do so for more noble reasons than merely "saving a buck and pulling the wool over our eyes".

Any human with 10 fingers can make competitive products with enough training. It doesn't matter where you are located and the Taiwan plant is consistently banging out amazing stuff. I enjoy the variety and the concept of "not putting all your eggs in one basket".

Ultimately you can only judge the products and your own convictions. My family owns Honda, Toyota, Ford and Chevy vehicles...each impressive in their own right. Narrowing your focus is your prerogative, but as The Deacon mentioned "you will miss out on some nice knives".

[v8r]

I really have been impressed with all the Spyderco knives coming from Taiwan.I currently own a PPT, my buddy owns a Chockwe, and I have handled a few of the Sages, and they are all superbly built knives. The Byrd models I have bought have for the most part have been every bit as nice or nicer than the Japanese made Spyderco knives.If it wasn't for other countries and cultures we wouldn't have any of the Ethnic designs that many of us love.If I could own all of the Ethnic series knives that Spyderco has come out with over the years I would be completely stoked. The Ethnic series has opened up a door for learning about different cultures and how they used their tools. I have no problems buying something made in a foreign country as long as it is well made and I know the people building the product are being treated fairly.

As others have said "Work Ethic" in America has been going down hill for a long time.I am 34 years old and Manage a tire shop and have found out that for the most part people these days don't want to put out much effort and want to make $20+ dollars a hour. If people really want to examine themselves we have made it where companies have to go over seas to have products manufactured just so that prices can be competitive. If you pay a man 20 dollars a hour for shall we say halfarse work how much do you think the end product would cost?

[The Deacon]

My only complaint with Spyderco's offerings from Taiwan is that the Mar/McBurnette lock Sage will probably not be among them for at least a year. I find that very depressing.