Reflections on Restricted Items

[KaliGman]

If an item is manufactured in one state and shipped to another, it constitutes interstate commerce and federal regulations apply. According to the way that Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) seems to be interpreting the "Switchblade Act" and the way the case law in the 10th Circuit has defined "switchblade or automatic knife," a 'fly is considered an automatic knife. Even if you live in Oregon, where state law allows you to purchase and possess balisongs, if the knife travelled in interstate commerce, you could have some federal "issues." Since Spyderco is abiding by its agreement in the 10th Circuit, and is expecting its distributors and dealers to abide by 10th Circuit rulings, none of the Spyderco autos or 'flys that you saw should have been available for purchase by the general public. Further, Spyderco will not service or perform any warranty work on an auto or 'fly which is not accompanied by the appropriate paperwork, and would be unable to return such a knife to the owner if said owner sent it in without the appropriate paperwork. Spyderco is considering the trainers as balisongs and subject to full regulation. I am unsure if this is due to the legal opinion of their attorney and in order to limit future financial losses, whether this is a stipulation of the agreement that was reached with the 10th Circuit and ICE in order to have their court case resolved, or whether this is in direct response to guidelines and rulings distributed to Spyderco by ICE. I will say that, in the current environment, you may be taking a chance buying an auto or balisong that is not made in Oregon. Will you be prosecuted? Probably not, but there is the possibility. I would stick to items made in Oregon if I were you. My feeling on this issue is that there are eventually going to be more cases involving other knife companies or said companies are going to be provided with some ICE rulings, and that this interpretation of what is "an automatic knife" is going to become the standard for the nation. Alternatively, the 10th Circuit decision may be vacated, either through legistlation or a new court proceeding (though this is less likely than having more regulation, based on my experience in federal law enforcment in the last few years). Having what amounts to widely divergent standards as to what constitutes an automatic knife affecting interstate commerce is completely unsatisfactory, and I wish the whole issue were moot and auto, balis, etc. were legal, at least on the federal level.

Hope this was some help to you, though I know that the answer is disappointing. In my opinion, the whole thing is somewhat silly, but I don't make the law. Currently, I am more concerned with the violent criminals that my task force is targeting. I wish these bad guys were carrying balisongs and automatic knives, and not wearing body armor and carrying 7.62mm x 39mm rifles.

[SolidState]

If an item is manufactured in one state and shipped to another, it constitutes interstate commerce and federal regulations apply....... Even if you live in Oregon, where state law allows you to purchase and possess balisongs, if the knife travelled in interstate commerce, you could have some federal "issues."......... I will say that, in the current environment, you may be taking a chance buying an auto or balisong that is not made in Oregon.... I would stick to items made in Oregon if I were you.

Thank you for the answer to my question. Being that there are options in my state, I will stick to those to avoid ICE issues. It is kind of a bummer that Spyderco isn't an option for me. Maybe I should try to machine one from scratch. Anybody got the cad files?

Thanks again for the answer and stay safe.

[HellHound]

And who needs those autos and balisongs anyways? Endura wave and zip tie mods are way more faster.Even the military and other models are as fast to deploy.

[GMArthur]

And who needs those autos and balisongs anyways? Endura wave and zip tie mods are way more faster.Even the military and other models are as fast to deploy.

It is hard to do a Y2K-Full Twirl-Arial Combo with an Endura. Balisong knives are fun to manipulate as well as having the strongest lock on a folder. I absolutely love my BM Morpho and would buy a Smallfly in a heartbeat if I could use Spyderco's excellent warranty and repair service. Bali's just take too much abuse to buy without being able to send them in for repair.

[HellHound]

It is hard to do a Y2K-Full Twirl-Arial Combo with an Endura. Balisong knives are fun to manipulate as well as having the strongest lock on a folder. I absolutely love my BM Morpho and would buy a Smallfly in a heartbeat if I could use Spyderco's excellent warranty and repair service. Bali's just take too much abuse to buy without being able to send them in for repair.

Guess it all depends on preference ,i love simple,fast,tactical folders,especially with a wave, very handy. But something i don't get,why are balisongs outlawed,why do ppl consider them special enough to ban from civilian use? No offence but a wave user could stab n slash faster rather than some1 who also takes time to whip out his bali.

[The Deacon]

It has been my observation that there is no requirement that laws be either logical or necessary. When you have a group of people whose job it is to create laws, you wind up with laws being created just to give the appearance of "doing something". At least that's the case here in the States. If it's different where you live, if all your laws make perfect sense, then either you are blessed or your current system of government has not been in place long enough for your lawmakers to start dreaming up totally idiotic ones.

[HellHound]

It has been my observation that there is no requirement that laws be either logical or necessary. When you have a group of people whose job it is to create laws, you wind up with laws being created just to give the appearance of "doing something". At least that's the case here in the States. If it's different where you live, if all your laws make perfect sense, then either you are blessed or your current system of government has not been in place long enough for your lawmakers to start dreaming up totally idiotic ones.

Well Deacon the laws over here are pretty much as fu*ked up as in the US. The government is corrupt, everyone is p!ssed but there afraid to take action, well the government spends money here and there,but I'm guessing there just laundering cash into there bank accounts, leaving the issue of making laws as there last place priority, seriously this situation is becoming more and more annoying,hopefully the new president will fix this.

[papaac]

With this discussion about autos coming out maybe someone can finally answer this question for me...

As I understand, it's completely legal to buy/own one of these types of knives if your Law Enforcement or Military...

So what about the rest of us Public Safety personnel...For instance, myself, and those in the fire service?

I've been told that by being in the profession that I'm in, that it's ok for me to purchase and own autos. Others have told me different. I've never been able to secure a "definitive" answer on this. Personally, I've never tried to purchase an auto before and put my "credentials" to the test so to speak.

My understanding is that in Texas, it is a defense to prosecution that you are military, LEO or EMT.

I have handled a few autos, and IMO, a Benchmade or Kershaw assisted open knife is actually faster opening.

[HellHound]

My understanding is that in Texas, it is a defense to prosecution that you are military, LEO or EMT.

I have handled a few autos, and IMO, a Benchmade or Kershaw assisted open knife is actually faster opening.

Dude,thats what I'm talkin bout,anything is faster than an auto these days. :)

[TrojanDonkey]

I think it absolutely retarded that I can NOT own an automatic knife or a balisong but can own a Ak 47 and a shotgun and can LEGALLY carry a .44 magnum or 21 shot 9mm Beretta. I do obey laws even if I dont agree with them but silly is as silly does.Many people have been killed with butcher knives and such so if a small auto or balisong is illegal it makes me think we need to change the laws.

[Waco]

I think it absolutely retarded that I can NOT own an automatic knife or a balisong but can own a Ak 47 and a shotgun and can LEGALLY carry a .44 magnum or 21 shot 9mm Beretta. I do obey laws even if I dont agree with them but silly is as silly does.Many people have been killed with butcher knives and such so if a small auto or balisong is illegal it makes me think we need to change the laws.

Any law that prohibits a law-abiding citizen from owning weapons is dumb. Pass all the laws you want against people with a criminal record, but leave the rest of us alone.

[jackknifeh]

I think this forum was good. I'm pretty new to Spyderco forum but have enjoyed it. This is the first one that I have read all the way through. As users we need to know at least the basic laws so we don't buy something that will get us or others in trouble with the law. If you do already have something illegal just DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Why is that so hard to do?

imo: WE ALL SHOULD BE ABLE TO OWN ANY KINFE WE WANT!!! Is the issue dealing with crime or safety? Switchblade knives, assisted opening knives and such are definately a little more unsafe than a normal folding knife. I tried someone's assisted opening knife and carelessly cut myself a little. I also put a scratch on a beautiful chair. This is done by not being careful as to how close the kinfe was to something else when I opened it. I now babysit my grandson and hate to think what might happen if he got hold of one (or any knife of course). The only difference in the assisted open blades is the force of the spring. Some are pretty strong. He can't walk yet but I've already thought about it. I also would be hesitant to loan an assisted opening knife to someone not familiar with them. Who hasn't had someone say "Can I borrow your knife"? That happened to me once in a bar by someone I didn't know. Drinking people and very sharp objects. Not the best combo. I said I didn't have one because I didn't know the guy or how much he had had to drink. I'm not going to get an assisted opening knife for those reasons. I understand "assisted opening knifes" are legal.

Guns fall into the same catagory as far as I'm concerned. Every single gun or knife is a tool. How it is used is the issue. If I rob a convenience store using a long screwdriver will I be charged the same as if I used a knife or gun? I do think that automatic guns are a bit extreme for the normal homeowner but that's just because I don't want one. A gun is not an everyday tool in the USA now except for a handful of people that hunt for food. I don't mean the hunter that eats what he kills. I mean someone that needs to hunt for food. Very few of those people left in America. Before I offend anyone I'm not against hunting. I've hunted myself. If someone eats what they kill there is nothing wrong with that imo. BUT, if you shoot something just for fun that shows a level of maturity that is really low. I said maturity because I don't know how many birds I killed with my pellet rifle as a kid. I regret that now.

I've strayed a little, back to knives only.

As a crime issue why can't the law change to something like this: If you use a deadly weapon to threaten someone with harm or death you will be charged as if you actually did harm or kill that person. Example: I, in a right state of mind, rob a bank with a switchblade knife. I could be charged with pre-meditated murder and subject to whatever sentence is possible for me as if I did kill someone even if I never touched or hurt anyone. The USE of the tool would be the issue, not the fact that it was manufactured legally and I bought and owned it legally. If that was the law the rest of us could continue to open boxes, cut string, work around the house or on the job using any kind of knife we want.

When I started typing this was going to be a really short post. Sorry.

Jack

[Highlandwarrior]

This message is for TazKristi:
Fortunately I fall into the LEO catagory and can own any knife I want. Kansas where I'm from even includes EMS and a few other professions that are able to carry autos and bali's that have not been discussed here. (Not sure how that stands federally). I know I am a few years behind, however I was just introduced to the Spyderfly and would like to own one for work. I would like to know how to aquire one and how to get it to me. If you would rather not say on a forum due to any number of complications I can think of arrising, as an administrator you can send an email to me or ask me to call.

To all other members who have posted:
All of the discusion on this forum regarding laws restricting or not restricting, and the exceptions to the rule; I have yet to see but a very few laws that do not have exceptions or that can be enforced by the pure black and white printing in the law books or a way around it. KaliGman has stated it several times, the one thing that the law cannot account for is what every single person has- an opinion. Someone out there will always disagree.

[The Deacon]

This message is for TazKristi:
Fortunately I fall into the LEO catagory and can own any knife I want. Kansas where I'm from even includes EMS and a few other professions that are able to carry autos and bali's that have not been discussed here. (Not sure how that stands federally). I know I am a few years behind, however I was just introduced to the Spyderfly and would like to own one for work. I would like to know how to aquire one and how to get it to me. If you would rather not say on a forum due to any number of complications I can think of arrising, as an administrator you can send an email to me or ask me to call.

To all other members who have posted:
All of the discusion on this forum regarding laws restricting or not restricting, and the exceptions to the rule; I have yet to see but a very few laws that do not have exceptions or that can be enforced by the pure black and white printing in the law books or a way around it. KaliGman has stated it several times, the one thing that the law cannot account for is what every single person has- an opinion. Someone out there will always disagree.

I'm not Kristi, but I can tell you the Spyderfly is not available, even to LEOs. Because some of the parts were imported, it was declared illegal by the 10th Federal Circuit Court and Spyderco was required to surrender all stock, all parts, and to make an effort to recover those knives already in circulation and surrender them as well. I expect that effort was less than 100% successful, so if you're ok with owning contraband, your only hope for acquiring one would be the secondary market. Your "legal to own" options would be a Smallfly or Szabofly. Many Spyderco dealers carry both and Spyderco may be able to sell you one at a discount.

[Highlandwarrior]

Deacon, thanks for the info and I guess I'm left with, more than likely fruitless, effort of waiting for Spyderco to make a very similar knife in the future. Or settle for the smallfly. Thanks

[DCDesigns]

If this is all true, how does a company like microtech exist? I dont know too many cops that want a $600 knife...

[The Deacon]

If this is all true, how does a company like microtech exist? I dont know too many cops that want a $600 knife...

Short simple answer, because Microtech is located in Pennsylvania and thus not subject to the 10th US Circuit's rather creative interpretation of the law.

[jtoler_9]

I know this a little OT, but to the original poster who is, I think in law enforcement. How long until the feds redefine the legal definition of the switchblade to include assisted open knives. I would bet good money that's coming up next across the US not just in NY. You mentioned disposing of these illegal knives responsibly. Can you tell me how to do that? If the law is yet again redefined any chance we will see local buy back programs for folding knives?

[loonybin]

I know this a little OT, but to the original poster who is, I think in law enforcement. How long until the feds redefine the legal definition of the switchblade to include assisted open knives. I would bet good money that's coming up next across the US not just in NY. You mentioned disposing of these illegal knives responsibly. Can you tell me how to do that? If the law is yet again redefined any chance we will see local buy back programs for folding knives?

They already tried last year, but AKTI put out a big stink to every knife forum, and there was enough response to the fed's "comment period," plus some congresscritters' complaints that they backed off.

[Minibear453]

There's no reason why a balisong should be banned. Why, I can open my Endura faster than most balisongs.... I think. Unfortunately, due to the genius of our lawmakers, I can't compare. However, a wave should be faster, IMO. Anyways, aside from that, a balisong is a knife. It's no more dangerous than another folding knife, just more flashy. :cool:

Maybe I can see switchblades, because they open too "fast", but still. Fixed blades open faster. :D

A knife is a knife, unless it's a ballistic knife. No reason to have special restrictions on certain types of knives. Honestly, I wish the second amendment could have been written better, to allow more freedom. But then again, I guess they didn't even think of knives then, since everyone who had pants had a knife.