why I advocate knives for self defense

[AllenETreat]

This thread'll probably cause a stir...

It requires some more explanation : one first has to take a look at
something under the law referred to as justifiable lethal force
( or homicide ) Let me begin by stating I used to have a pistol
permit in Connecticut ( which ended up growing wings, but that's
another story ) that allowed me to carry pistols & revolvers ( I also
carried knives too, but at the time was a gun nut ). Anyways, one of
my old instructors, a Norman Iselieb, told our class as we prepared
for the test required to obtain a permit to carry that, as Massad
Ayoob put it, a firearm should be used only in the gravest
extreme.

In short, if you're accosted on the street by a ne'er do well that
want's your money, we were told give him the money.

Why? Because if you shot this miscreant you could be the
one going to jail! :eek: The only instance one could feasibly shoot
at someone is if everything "went in the tub" ( so to speak ) and
then you'd have to have your back to the wall ( literally no means
of escape ).

Now, I'm not being some anti-gunner, quite the contrary, but as
one isn't left with many options with a good Glock 19, enter the
martial pocketknife...

A good knife ( I would say a Delica ; as it's blade fall's into that
4 finger rule the cops use ) with combo edge or :spyder: edge
would make a nice alternative in such situations. Here's how :

In one of the two incidences I was robbed at gunpoint ( one in
which I was unarmed ) the robber let down his guard by belting his
revolver to go through my pockets. Had I had a trusty cricket ( or
Delica ) with me I could have cut him up before he had a chance
to reach for his gun ( I know, suicidal ) but had it turned to this
form of hand-to-hand combat ( which would've involved some grappling )
something just changed the constraint on when I could use
lethal force.

I was now in a situation ( him probably choking me to death ) where
it's unlikely I could flee from the situation. Out come's the dreaded
cricket SE ( let's say ) and a cut the attacker so badly he actually
fled from the scene.

Ragnar Benson ( in his book switchblade : the ace of blades )
states that the sight of copius blood is often enough to repel an attacker.

So out of this peridigm of a conflict, we see that I didn't resort to the
firearm, and the attacker / robber got his by putting me in a situation
I couldn't flee from.

I think any judge would rule favorably for me as I did everything in my
power to avoid the use of a firearm. However, there's also the part I
forgot to mention : I also had no money on me!

However if I did, then I'd still be goin' to the hoosegow!

We could get into the many facets of the situation ( what un-godly
hour was I roaming the streets, etc. ) but I think I've made the point.

Some things to keep in mind for a martial pocket knife -

* Keep that blade under the "four finger rule" - an exception being
that you have a permit to carry a firearm, in which case you stay
within your state's confines for blade length ( in CT it's 4". So if I
still had my permit, I'd carry an Endura CE )

* No autos ( of course! ) or assisted openers.

And remember, the good officer is always right.

Home defense? Gimme a good 12 gauge! -

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/ithaca37hs.jpg

also, footnote :

http://www.themartialist.com

AET

[Billy]

Valid words indeed. I have had my CCW since around 93 or 94 (?) and until just about 4 years ago, I typically carried a 1911 pistol IWB daily. I also always carried a folder, even/especially when not "packing". I stopped carrying my firearm pretty much altogether because (I know this will sound silly) I just got tired of it. Constantly dressing to conceal, worrying about sweating all over my prized firearms, and also the spector of the uncomfortable situation if one of my daughter's friends or parents happened to notice the bulge or even my weapon printing (I would often carry with only a t-shirt to cover). Anyway, I obviously never stopped carrying my knives and don't plan on starting any regular firearm carry any time soon (but it's still nice to know I could if I wanted to).

When I was taking my CCW class, it was made pretty clear that if you use your firearm, you WILL go to jail, no ifs ands or buts and you will have to convince the judge you were in fear for your life and/or grave bodily injury (or defending someone else in the same situation). Florida carry law also states that, unless you are in your home, you must make every reasonable attempt to get away from the scene without using your weapon. So if you have to use it, it better be completely justified with no grey areas. In my head, I always felt it would be better to end the life of the attacker as well. If I'm going to use lethal force, I intend to use it to it's fullest potential.

As you stated though, a knife is a whole different ball game and could be used as non-lethal defense, much more like pepper spray, etc. So in the ugly eventuality I have to defend myself or my family with one of my blades, I feel a bit more confident that "the system" will look favorably on my use of non-lethal force.

[LOOKABIRD]

Wait, online it says that the knife law is 4 inches. Does the 4-finger rule still apply? Is it illegal for me to carry my Civilian and Military?

Tom

[KaliGman]

Allen,

There are so many problems in what you relayed that I really don't know where to start. One of the minor problems is the "four finger rule" which basically, doesn't exist. Blade lengths/knife laws are defined in inches and other terms--people's fingers vary in size. I have never seen a "finger rule" and I have been a police officer, police instructor, federal agent, federal certified instructor, etc. The entire use of force continuum you describe is kind of out there as well. A knife is considered a deadly weapon--so is a firearm. Using a knife or using a firearm in a self defense situation is using a deadly device. The only real difference is that sometimes, it is legal to carry a knife and not a handgun or, rarely, vice versa. If the two items are both legal to carry, there will be no real legal difference in their use--you used a deadly device and you had better be able to articulate why. This applies to using the knife in the normal fashion--to cut or stab. If it is used closed as an impact device and only to the "green" areas on the law enforcement baton charts a knife could be considered a lesser option on the use of force continuum (you had better be able to really explain what you were doing). As for having to give up your money in a robbery--not always. The key to using deadly force is being able to articulate that you were in fear of death or imminent and serious bodily injury. A robbery could easily put you in such a situation. Some states still have the "attempt to escape prior to using deadly force" clause in their statutes. Many do not, and, even in the ones that have such clauses, the law recognizes that there are times when it is impractical to attempt to escape (like when the guy is pointing a .45 ACP in your face).

As for "blood scaring people"--sometimes yes, sometimes no. I have fought people who kept coming after grievous injuries and those who immediately folded. In general, absent decapitation, I do not depend on anything to stop a fight immediately--I continue to move and have backup options/strikes, etc. available.

[Jimd]

Bottom line: if someone threatens me with deadly force, I will deal with them in the most expeditious way possible. That will likely involve serious bodily harm or death to my attacker because that's often the only way to stop them.

Any time an attacker brandishes a deadly weapon at us, we must assume he's going to use it (or he wouldn't be coming at us with it). Doom on him, it's his problem.

[AllenETreat]

Wait, online it says that the knife law is 4 inches. Does the 4-finger rule still apply? Is it illegal for me to carry my Civilian and Military?

Tom

Tom ;

You most certainly can carry'em both. Connecticut public
safety code clearly state's a blade "...not to exceed four inches..."
I use the "four finger rule" as I have a past criminal record and err
on the side of caution.

You might want to tend more towards the mili though ; take a look
at my thread New York knifers beware.

The era of Big Brother didn't happen in 1984, it's happening now.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

AET

[Dr. Snubnose]

Ditto what KaliGman Says.....Doc :D

[kimjune01]

Assume the worst: he knows grappling skills. Once you fail to disable him from taking over control, he's likely to either freeze, fight or flight(in fear). He probably won't freeze but he might run. Assuming the worst, he will fight to regain control over the situation - there's a chance that he'll kill you.
On the other hand, if you do not resist and give him the money, he won't risk the consequences of killing you. Your life is worth more than $2000(who carries $2k in cash anyway?), so suck it up.
If you're a Christian and in a situation where it's 'either he kills me or I kill him', then you should let him kill you, because his life is worth more than yours in the sense that he might choose to follow Christ sometime later in his life whereas you're already saved and going to heaven. If you die, God probably wanted to see you faster :p . [Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in ****.]
On another note, a good self-defense system(the kind that have 'do' as a suffix, not 'tsu'. 'do' is defense and 'tsu' is offense) with a couple years experience should be enough to disable a gunman at a close range. Plus, pinning down the attacker or breaking his bones are less harmful ways that can disable the attacker. Don't learn from movies; learn from an instructor.

Romans 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Matthew 5:39-40 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
Matthew 5:43-44"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
.. all from English Standard Version, the most literal version

*edit*
added additional verses

[merciful]

Thank god I'm post-Christian.

If you're a Christian and in a situation where it's 'either he kills me or I kill him', then you should let him kill you, because his life is worth more than yours in the sense that he might choose to follow Christ sometime later in his life whereas you're already saved and going to heaven. If you die, God probably wanted to see you faster :p .

[quattrokid73]

On the other hand, if you are a nice guy and you live, you have all that time to touch other lives for the better while you are alive. History studied shows us that bad guys often times continue being bad guys.

Bottom line for me:

Even if the legality may be in question, I am doing what I can in the moment to stay alive. If I'm thinking about what the cops will think when defending myself, I might very well be the one leaving in the body bag.

What's that saying?

Rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6...?

[KaliGman]

Assume the worst: he knows grappling skills. Once you fail to disable him from taking over control, he's likely to either freeze, fight or flight(in fear). He probably won't freeze but he might run. Assuming the worst, he will fight to regain control over the situation - there's a chance that he'll kill you.
On the other hand, if you do not resist and give him the money, he won't risk the consequences of killing you. Your life is worth more than $2000(who carries $2k in cash anyway?), so suck it up.
If you're a Christian and in a situation where it's 'either he kills me or I kill him', then you should let him kill you, because his life is worth more than yours in the sense that he might choose to follow Christ sometime later in his life whereas you're already saved and going to heaven. If you die, God probably wanted to see you faster :p . [Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in ****.]
On another note, a good self-defense system(the kind that have 'do' as a suffix, not 'tsu'. 'do' is defense and 'tsu' is offense) with a couple years experience should be enough to disable a gunman at a close range. Plus, pinning down the attacker or breaking his bones are less harmful ways that can disable the attacker. Don't learn from movies; learn from an instructor.

Romans 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Matthew 5:39-40 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
Matthew 5:43-44"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
.. all from English Standard Version, the most literal version

*edit*
added additional verses

WOW. I can say it backwards--WOW.

Hope that one works out for you. Grappling with weapons is very interesting. I have done it in practice, in teaching, and for real. The idea that a grappler is going to easily control the knife in the hands of someone who is skilled with a knife is a pretty BS statement. Check out some of the videos available on knife techniques--in fact, go to my website http://www.albokalisilat.org and look at the "Blitz Attack" video, some of the karambit videos, and the like and maybe you will see how hard it is going to be to grapple against a good knife wielding opponent. As for the person leaving you alone if you give up your money--not always. Based on my years of experience as a law enforcement officer I can tell you that criminals sometimes (in some places I have worked it is more "frequently" than "sometimes") injure or kill robbery victims regardless of resistance.

As for the religious/philosophical statements--your call, your problem. I completely disagree with the philosophy and your doctrinal interpretations, but that is OK. You are the one who will have to live (or die) by your beliefs, not me.

Good luck.

[stonyman]

I agree with Kalig also, not awhole lot to add. Okay a little tired, but kimjune, I would refrain from twisting the christian faith as one that rest on total passivity. I am too familiar with the word and can respond in kind with many a versus that supports the warriors mentality.

It is passive speaking that makes those who want a true understanding and walk with Christ refrain because they feel like they have to be a powderpuff. Anyway this is not the time or place. To all you take care and God Bless! :D

[Ed Schempp]

KaliGman,
Thank you for your wise comments born of experience...Take Care...Ed

[kimjune01]

I agree with Kalig also, not awhole lot to add. Okay a little tired, but kimjune, I would refrain from twisting the christian faith as one that rest on total passivity. I am too familiar with the word and can respond in kind with many a versus that supports the warriors mentality.

It is passive speaking that makes those who want a true understanding and walk with Christ refrain because they feel like they have to be a powderpuff. Anyway this is not the time or place. To all you take care and God Bless! :D

You sound like your personal death from your point of view is a bad thing:
Phillipians 1:21-26 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus

[SimpleIsGood229]

If you're a Christian and in a situation where it's 'either he kills me or I kill him', then you should let him kill you, because his life is worth more than yours in the sense that he might choose to follow Christ sometime later in his life whereas you're already saved and going to heaven. If you die, God probably wanted to see you faster :p .

Truly with all due respect, you are not correct. Christ calls us to stand up for what is right. The truth is, it is most certainly not right to allow yourself to be murdered. Going off of that, it would be perfectly acceptable, for example, to let a robber murder you and the rest of your family in the event of a home invasion. To simply allow an aggressor to do such a thing --unchallenged, no less-- is plainly and simply unconscionable.

On another note, a good self-defense system(the kind that have 'do' as a suffix, not 'tsu'. 'do' is defense and 'tsu' is offense)

Please tell us how JuJitsu, for example, is an offensive system. Martial arts do serve very well in ones self defense repertoire.

with a couple years experience should be enough to disable a gunman at a close range. Plus, pinning down the attacker or breaking his bones are less harmful ways that can disable the attacker. Don't learn from movies; learn from an instructor.

If someone has a firearm in your face, by all means, I hope you have your own. I most certainly wouldn't depend upon grappling skills to disarm a gunman. If someone is threatening your very life, why not give yourself every possible advantage you can?

[Agent Starling]

hey kj01,

I respect your POV...it's IMO up to the individual how they would choose to respond to any given situation "in the gravest extreme"...

I agree with KaliG and jimd and I, too, value hearing the real-life experience POV. :)

While I consider myself a Christian, if ever God forbid the SHTF, and the situation was "in the gravest extreme"...I would definitely protect myself...I don't see how God would give the animals talons, teeth and claws and not begrudge them their use, but would do the opposite for human beings using hawkbills, karambits or yojimbos to defend their lives...

just my $0.02...

Agent Starling

PS...I know my POV isn't Christianity "by the book", but it is what makes sense to me...not trying to get in a quibble over proper interpretation of scripture...

[merciful]

By all means, don't hang around on our account.

Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

[kimjune01]

The truth is, it is most certainly not right to allow yourself to be murdered.

Because this is about self-defense, I will stick to the topic of self-defense, not family-defense which is a different topic. Could you tell us whether that 'truth' is in the bible or not?

[TazKristi]

Ok, before this goes too much further. Let's stay on the topic of the OP. Please remember what we ask regarding discussions on Religion (and Politics).

Kristi

[AllenETreat]

One of the minor problems is the "four finger rule" which basically, doesn't exist.

Here's what I'd like to know : why then do the local police use four fingers
when they measure a blade? Why not a tape measurer?

As for "blood scaring people"--sometimes yes, sometimes no. I have fought people who kept coming after grievous injuries and those who immediately folded. In general, absent decapitation, I do not depend on anything to stop a fight immediately--I continue to move and have backup options/strikes, etc. available.

Ragnar Benson suggested just that. If I recall the book -

The sight of copius blood is sometimes enough to repel an attacker

Reality of the judicial system : you probably won't be doing much articulating
as you will "copping a plea". Seldom are there juries of twelve enpanelled
anymore and judges seem happy to accept a "plea bargain" unless you can
hire F. Lee Bailey.

The point is, crimes with firearms usually get judged more harshly as bullets
can sometimes go through their targets and into innocent bystanders. Also
societies decline into sheepleness. Sadly the anti-gunners seem to be winning.

I gotta respect your view KaliGman. It's just that, the lower
one get's on the pecking order in society, the fewer one's options are.

AET