Okay, ZDP-189, impress me....

[MacTech]

I recieved my PE ZDP Delica today, I was curious to see what all the hype about ZDP steel is, i figure anything hyped and promoted to the extent ZDP-189 has been here and on BF can't be as good as they say (why yes, i'm a cynic, thank you for asking )

my philosophy is that grandiose claims must be investigated and disproved if possible, the last knife steel that tripped my hype sensors was H-1, the claims of it's utter immunity to rust seemed impossible, and needed serious investigation, i was *sure* i could get it to rust, *no* steel is stainproof, just stainLESS

happily, i was quite wrong, to put it in Mythbusters terms, the claim that H-1 will not rust has been solidly *CONFIRMED*

what with all the hype around ZDP-189, I.E. "it's so sharp that you can cut your eyes just looking at the blade, it has a mysterious force field that extends beyond the blade that cuts material before it even touches the blade, it makes you more appealing to the opposite sex, it keeps your teeth clean and white and reverses Male Pattern Baldness, oh, and it also sharpens easily and holds an edge for almost forever, *BUT* it also has a high rockwell hardness and excellent edge retention and almost never needs sharpening"....you know, that kind of hype ....

with that kind of hype (okay so i exaggerated a *little*, i claim creative licence, after all, it's my post anyway), i figured it was worth a look....

the BRG ZDP Delica came out of the box with the typical high-end Delica fit and finish, great ergos, no bladeplay, a unique FRN color (BRG looks more grayish-green to my eyes than green-green

strangely enough, the blade didn't really feel too sharp via the "thumb drag" and "fingernail drag" tests, it actually felt a tad duller than my D4 Wave, but to be fair, i *DID* sharpen the Wave to Hair-Poppingly Scary Sharp, almost a Monomolecular sharpness, and the BRG is still on the factory edge, i just arm-hair tested the BRG, and it *did* pop hairs on the factory edge.....

okay, so it looks like the BRG has a more polished, less "toothy" edge than the VG-10 Waved D4....

since we closed early at work today, due to the Nor'Easter (a 15 minute drive home took me almost an hour...), i didn't have a chance to cut down many boxes, so i really haven't put the BRG to the test yet, so what i'm going to do is leave the Wave at home (which will be tough to do, as i really love the D4 Wave) and do all my cutting with the BRG for the next week or so, give it an honest test, see if ZDP-189 is as good as everyone says it is

Okay ZDP, impress me....

[psimonl]

Hello my friend,

I actually own a blue 1st batch ZDP and plan to start to EDC it in school next week. My now edc being a Lil'T is a little big for in pocket carry.

(Can't let the clip show with 6-7 years old children...!!! :eek: )

So we both will be testing "ZDP for EDC"...

Sounds like a presidency campain slogan...


ZDP for EDP..... ZDP for EDC... :rolleyes:

Simon

[jaislandboy]

[quote="MacTech"]...
what with all the hype around ZDP-189, I.E. "it's so sharp that you can cut your eyes just looking at the blade, it has a mysterious force field that extends beyond the blade that cuts material before it even touches the blade, it makes you more appealing to the opposite sex, it keeps your teeth clean and white and reverses Male Pattern Baldness, oh, and it also sharpens easily and holds an edge for almost forever, *BUT* it also has a high rockwell hardness and excellent edge retention and almost never needs sharpening"....you know, that kind of hype ]

Heheh u forgot to include "enhances male performance".... :)

I think the never-before-experienced ultra-acute factory angle fo the Burgundly Calypso Jr's zdp189 edge....i don't know the actual inclusive edge angle...26 degrees?....accounted for a portion of the initial hype of Zdp189.... :rolleyes:

But it is the edge retention that accounts for the rest.... :cool:

[MacTech]

So far, i've scored a few labels off an Apple PowerBook mail-in-repair box, and broken down two medium sized boxes (16" long, 7" wide, 3" high) into small strips of about 6"x3.5" that i use for my cardboard piercing penetration tests, i have around 20 strips or so from these two boxes (BRG Delica pierced 12 layers in icepick grip, 15 in hammer grip)

the knife has lost the hair-popping factory edge and was starting to drag and bind a *little* on the last few strips, but still cut very easily, a quick cardboard stropping brought back the edge to near hair-popping, but it now won't pop hairs

doing a similar box breakdown with the VG-10 D4W, it started having trouble cutting at about the halfway point on the second box

so far, ZDP-189 appears to be pretty close to VG-10, just a slight edge in durability, not much, certainly not to warrant the price difference

so far, ZDP is *NOT* impressing me

it's funny, the whole time i was breaking down the boxes, i was severely tempted to simply break out the Dodo which would make short work of this task, but no, i said i'd give ZDP a fair chance, and i will, i really missed using the Dodo, as scoring off labels and breaking down boxes are it's forté

[Edit]
I've now broken down another medium size box (about the size of a large pizza box) and an noticing a distinct drag in the cutting, if i angle the knife at about a 45 degree angle to the box surface, it rips through with little resistance, a straight pull cut down the box yields a lot more drag, i can now feel definite spots on the blade where the edge is starting to roll over if i drag the tip of a fingernail down the blade, examining the edge with the magnifying lens in my Swisschamp shows definite "flat" spots in the edge, only visible if i'm looking at the edge straight-on, looking from the side, they're undetectable

it's not responding as well to cardboard stropping as before, the edge is showing the first signs of breaking down after light use on 3 boxes

to be fair, it *is* the factory edge, and perhaps i just need to sharpen out the weak points on the factory edge

however, one thing i *DON'T* like about the D4 design for breaking down boxes is that i feel vaguely "out of control" for lack of a better term when performing long pull-cuts while i'm breaking the box down, the knife feels like it could slip out of the cardboard during cutting, vaguely out of control....

as a way of contrast, i took my SE Dodo, which actually needs a little touch-up on the tip, and cut one of the pieces of the box, about a 14" piece of cardboard, the Dodo snicked throug it as smooth as glass, and i never felt like the knife could get away from me, like i did with the Delica, or any non-hawkbill/reverse-s blade

overall, i'd rate ZDP steel as just *okay* at this point i consider it overhyped....

once i see how it sharpens up, i may change my mind, but for now, sorry, not seeing the love for this steel, it's not *bad*, mind you, it just seems overrated to me.....

*sigh* and i had such high hopes for it....

[severedthumbs]

well to be fair you can't base the quality of a steel off of cardboard alone or even at all. cardboard is a horrible medium for testing edge durability. you never know what is in one batch of cardboard to the next.

[clovisc]

i think you're right, mactech...

i'm starting a ZDP disposal station here in Virginia... PM me, and we'll work out arrangements for you to dispose of your ZDP knife or knives, at no cost to you besides postage... :D

[cobrajoe]

I was skeptical until I started using my SE BRG D4 to cut through automotive belts with Kevlar cording inside. No, the ZDP didn't make the cutting any easier, but I cut a significant number of them and there is not a single nick or roll on the edge, and it still seems as sharp as when I got it. Just for comparison, I used my SE dodo to cut through one of the same belts, and the edge was visibly damaged after just one belt.

But this made me think, how awesome would an SE dodo with ZDP be? maybe even with the Peel ply CF that seems so grippy? I think I just blew my own mind. Ouch.

[Zac]

ZDP is a nice cutting steel, but like you I have not been able to justify the price difference because:

VG-10, Spyderco's BASE steel, holds a more than satisfactory edge and has proven stain and impact resistance. I have not found ZDP-189 to hold an edge so much better than VG-10 that I have to write a letter to grandma. Mind you, it holds an amazing edge, but the base VG-10 Spyderco is using makes that difference seem a lot less. Compare it so something like AUS-8, and indeed I would be writing grandma as we speak. Additionally, I baton with my CPM-S30V knives and have with VG-10 in the past...I am terrified to do this with ZDP.

[jaislandboy]

.....it's hard to beat the cutting performance to price ratio of the good ol' VG10 Delica4.....period.... :rolleyes:

[rcbalt2]

Last night I did a whole dark set for my store. Breaking down boxes and opening tons of packaging and my zdp caly JR still shaves. Now to me thats impressive I mean reeally really impressive, like the best cup of coffee impressive or dating a hot celebrity impressive, or finding the secret to cold fusion impressive. OK maybe not dating a hot celebrity impressive but all the others are acurate. Enjoy the ZDP, I know I do.

[JD Spydo]

The one thing that I really admire about ZDP-189 blade steel is it's "edge properties". A razor sharp edge on a ZDP-189 blade seems to bite and/or begin a cut much more efficiently that about any other stainless I have encountered. It is one stainless that really has an edge that GRABS similar to that of a high quality Carbon Steel.

Another thing I have noticed about ZDP-189 is that it also grabs well with a highly polished edge than does S30V or VG-10 IMO.

If you want an edge that grabs beyond belief take a ZDP-189 blade and get it razor sharp and then do 2 to 4 passes on the 204 Sharpmaker with the Gray/medium stones.

Most stainless steels even when they are super sharp you have to press just a bit to get started most of the time but now with ZDP-189. That to me is THEE distinct difference that sets it apart.

[cobrajoe]

JD, you're tempting me again... I was just wishing out loud that a flat ground blade with a steel that takes a biting edge would be a great thing, so far the only knife I have like that is the little salsa. Now you have me wanting a ZDP Caly Jr. I really wish that the salsa would make a return with a slightly refined comp lock and this steel with the wonderful properties you describe.

[MacTech]

Okay, i admit it, i prejudged ZDP based on the factory edge, after resharpening it on the Sharpmaker at the 30 degree setting, i finally understand the raves about this steel

ZDP-189 *IS* impressive steel, it takes a razor sharp edge and holds it very well

i figured it was time to get serious with my testing hardware, so last night i picked up a Radio Shack illuminated microscope so i could really examine the edge under magnification, that little microscope is a great little tool, it really allowed me to see and understand what was going on with the edges of my knives, i've read about primary bevels, secondary bevels and microbevels, the formations of the microscratches in the blade edge that makes up a utility edge, and how stropping realigns and polishes the edge, tightening the microscratches, i understood these concepts in theory, but i never actually *saw* them happening

until tonight

it was slow this evening at work, so i grabbed my BRG Delica, and got to reprofiling the edge to the 30 degree setting, it's true what they say about ZDP-189, it's some *hard* steel, it took around an hour or so to get the 30 degree setting to take, but once the edge took, and i saw the microscratches on the microbevel indicating that the sharpening took, i then stropped on cardboard to tighten up the scratches (and also looked at the cardboard under magnification as well, i now understand why cardboard dulls knives so quickly, it's some truly abrasive stuff), the cardboard stropping didn't do as much as i thought, but it did tighten up the microscratches

before cutting up another couple of boxes, i inspected the edge with the microscope, to get an idea for it's current state, i then proceeded to cut up a pair of boxes

the reprofiled 30 degree sharpening and stropping of the BRG D4 sailed through the cardboard with little resistance, right up there with my 30 degree sharpened VG-10 D4 Wave, however, when inspecting the edge of the BRG after cutting up the boxes, i saw no damage to the edge, it was just as sharp as before i cut the boxes

by means of comparison, i sharpened and stropped the tip of my Harpy, checked it under magnification and cut the box fragments up, there was visible, but extremely minor wear to the tip edge, if the original sharpness was a 10, after the boxes, the sharpness would have been a 9, wheras the BRG started and ended at 10

so yes, ZDP-189 *does* appear to have *slightly* greater edge retention than VG-10

when i got home tonight, i decided to test out my "3 stage" Strop (pine board with 3 pieces of leather glued to it, rough suede, smooth suede, and smooth leather)

i start stropping on the heavy suede, after around 10 passes or so (depends on the condition of the edge), i move to the smooth suede for another 10 passes, and finish with 10 passes on the smooth leather, i was a little concerned that the strop really wasn't working, and that the "improvements" i felt in the edge were merely psychosomatic, as it's just bare leather, no stropping compound is used, i was expecting the microscope to show no change in the edge

i was wrong, dead wrong, the strop worked exactly the way i hoped it would, the three leather finishes acting as progressively finer "grits", the rough suede started polishing the edge, tightening the microscratches, however, they were still visible at 60x magnification

the smooth suede started to polish the edge, at 60x it was almost impossible to see the scratches, i zoomed in to approx. 80x and saw them, a little smoother than under 60x

i then moved to the smooth leather, under 80X the edge took on a mirrored shine, so i maxed out to 100x magnification, the edge was *still* mirror polished, my 3-stage strop *works*!

i then compared my stropped D4W to the BRG D4, both knives had a mirror polished edge under 100X, and both knives pop arm hair

that little Radio Shack microscope should be part of everyone's sharpening kit, it's a really useful tool, it's quite cool to watch the edge of a knife go from a microserrated utility edge to a mirror-polished Scary Sharp edge, and it really helps you to understand what's happening during sharpening

okay, back on track, i'm really starting to like ZDP-189, to be perfectly honest, i can't rationalize the price difference between ZDP and VG-10, but it *is* a nice steel, part of the reason i like it is the "cool factor" as a high-tech Übersteel, but the increase in performance over VG-10 isn't enough to justify the price increase

It's a very cool steel, and i will be keeping the ZDP D4, but i have no pressing need for any more ZDP-189 knives at the moment

[Dr. Snubnose]

I have a ZDP Caly Jr. and I am very very impressed with the way this steel cuts...."it's so sharp that you can cut your eyes just looking at the blade,

I now have to wear a patch over one eye! and can only look at the ZDP safely when I squint!


it has a mysterious force field that extends beyond the blade that cuts material before it even touches the blade,
My ZDP blade has never touched any material and it still keeps cutting...amazing!


it makes you more appealing to the opposite sex,
I have to beat them off with a stick....so this is true!


it keeps your teeth clean and white and reverses Male Pattern Baldness,
This one I not sure of...cause I use a toothbrush not my knife to clean my teeth, and since I got my ZDP Caly Jr. I have hair growing all over the place...not only on my head, but out of my ears and nose....incredible!


oh, and it also sharpens easily and holds an edge for almost forever, *BUT* it also has a high rockwell hardness and excellent edge retention and almost never needs sharpening"...

I have not as of this date even touched up the blade, so this one must be true as well!

All and All ZDP seems to be holding it's own and all that Hype...it's all true and ZDP makes a terrific nose and ear hair trimmer as well...hair popping sharp if you ask me.....Doc :p

[gunmike1]

Okay, i admit it, i prejudged ZDP based on the factory edge, after resharpening it on the Sharpmaker at the 30 degree setting, i finally understand the raves about this steel

ZDP-189 *IS* impressive steel, it takes a razor sharp edge and holds it very well

You may have had a slightly burred factory edge, accounting for your below average initial performance. I have had a few Spydercos that were like that, and the edge retention suffers. Once you resharpen it properly you see what the steel can really do. I would personally suggest you reprofile the edge down to well under 10 per side (though the saber grind on a delica only allows you to go to 7-8 per side) on an X coarse or XX coarse diamond benchstone and you will really see what all of the fuss about ZDP 189 is.

i figured it was time to get serious with my testing hardware, so last night i picked up a Radio Shack illuminated microscope so i could really examine the edge under magnification, that little microscope is a great little tool, it really allowed me to see and understand what was going on with the edges of my knives, i've read about primary bevels, secondary bevels and microbevels, the formations of the microscratches in the blade edge that makes up a utility edge, and how stropping realigns and polishes the edge, tightening the microscratches, i understood these concepts in theory, but i never actually *saw* them happening

I think that is the one piece of sharpening equipment that brought my edges from OK to very sharp, and is an essential piece of sharpening gear. Like you say, it gives you a great look at what is actually happening to the edge of your knife.

it was slow this evening at work, so i grabbed my BRG Delica, and got to reprofiling the edge to the 30 degree setting, it's true what they say about ZDP-189, it's some *hard* steel, it took around an hour or so to get the 30 degree setting to take, but once the edge took, and i saw the microscratches on the microbevel indicating that the sharpening took, i then stropped on cardboard to tighten up the scratches (and also looked at the cardboard under magnification as well, i now understand why cardboard dulls knives so quickly, it's some truly abrasive stuff), the cardboard stropping didn't do as much as i thought, but it did tighten up the microscratches

Cardboard is very tough on edges, and ZDP is tough to reprofile, especially on the Sharpmaker. It is kind of surprising that your's was over 15 per side, as from what I had heard most ZDP Delicas were leaving the factory closer to 12-13 per side (like my Manix and R2 were), but my Jess Horn was nearly 20 per side near the tip from the factory, so hand sharpening will cause some variation in the factory angles. Once thinned out the cutting performance and edge retention go way up, again I recommend going to well under 10 per side to really see the benefits of ZDP 189 steel (I run my VG-10 at 10 per side with a 15 degree microbevel for general usage, but ZDP thinner than the VG-10).

before cutting up another couple of boxes, i inspected the edge with the microscope, to get an idea for it's current state, i then proceeded to cut up a pair of boxes

the reprofiled 30 degree sharpening and stropping of the BRG D4 sailed through the cardboard with little resistance, right up there with my 30 degree sharpened VG-10 D4 Wave, however, when inspecting the edge of the BRG after cutting up the boxes, i saw no damage to the edge, it was just as sharp as before i cut the boxes

by means of comparison, i sharpened and stropped the tip of my Harpy, checked it under magnification and cut the box fragments up, there was visible, but extremely minor wear to the tip edge, if the original sharpness was a 10, after the boxes, the sharpness would have been a 9, wheras the BRG started and ended at 10

so yes, ZDP-189 *does* appear to have *slightly* greater edge retention than VG-10

In my experience the ZDP does last quite a bit longer than VG-10 on boxes, especially when you start cutting a lot of them and letting the knives get duller. Don't get me wrong, I still like VG-10 a lot, ZDP 189 just has tremendous slicing edge retention. Also, having that microscope is a tremendous and I think essential tool for checking your edges during sharpening and cutting, so that you can really see what is going on, or any chipping that may occur.

that little Radio Shack microscope should be part of everyone's sharpening kit, it's a really useful tool, it's quite cool to watch the edge of a knife go from a microserrated utility edge to a mirror-polished Scary Sharp edge, and it really helps you to understand what's happening during sharpening

It is the best $10 a knife knut can spend!

okay, back on track, i'm really starting to like ZDP-189, to be perfectly honest, i can't rationalize the price difference between ZDP and VG-10, but it *is* a nice steel, part of the reason i like it is the "cool factor" as a high-tech Übersteel, but the increase in performance over VG-10 isn't enough to justify the price increase

It's a very cool steel, and i will be keeping the ZDP D4, but i have no pressing need for any more ZDP-189 knives at the moment

At the same profile you won't notice much difference except you have to sharpen the ZDP less. When you thin the ZDP 189 out much thinner to take advantage of it's hardness and ability to resist edge rolling is where you start to see the advantages in sharpness and edge retention over the VG-10. If you don't want to reprofile your knife to very thin angles and stick close to factory geometry you likely won't see the price increase for ZDP 189 to be worth it, but I can't recommend enough that you thin it out as thin as possible and you will start to see some of the advantages of ZDP 189.

Mike

[MacTech]

You may have had a slightly burred factory edge, accounting for your below average initial performance. I have had a few Spydercos that were like that, and the edge retention suffers. Once you resharpen it properly you see what the steel can really do. I would personally suggest you reprofile the edge down to well under 10 per side (though the saber grind on a delica only allows you to go to 7-8 per side) on an X coarse or XX coarse diamond benchstone and you will really see what all of the fuss about ZDP 189 is.

At the same profile you won't notice much difference except you have to sharpen the ZDP less. When you thin the ZDP 189 out much thinner to take advantage of it's hardness and ability to resist edge rolling is where you start to see the advantages in sharpness and edge retention over the VG-10. If you don't want to reprofile your knife to very thin angles and stick close to factory geometry you likely won't see the price increase for ZDP 189 to be worth it, but I can't recommend enough that you thin it out as thin as possible and you will start to see some of the advantages of ZDP 189.

Mike

I think it's time to stop off at KTP this afternoon to pick up a benchstone setup (i'm thinking that Smiths triangle shaped benchstone thingy with the three benchstones on it) and a beater knife to practice on

it's funny, with all the knives i have, i don't have any that i consider "beaters", they're all in nice shape, my Ka-Bar is about as close as i get to a beater

[gunmike1]

I think it's time to stop off at KTP this afternoon to pick up a benchstone setup (i'm thinking that Smiths triangle shaped benchstone thingy with the three benchstones on it) and a beater knife to practice on

it's funny, with all the knives i have, i don't have any that i consider "beaters", they're all in nice shape, my Ka-Bar is about as close as i get to a beater

Luckily, I have a few beaters that I had the chance to practice on. For serious reprofiling the DMT XX coarse or X coarse work well, but can definately effect the finish (you can use painter's tape to protect the blade if you care). The XX coarse especially can tear up the finish, but it is the fastest reprofiling tool short of a good belt sander, and I can't recommend it enough. Thom Brogan used the DMT XX coarse to good effect on his ZDP Delica (and I used it on several of my knives to good effect), thinning it flat to the stone to a more sensible profile. Of course, carpal tunnel and ugly blade finishes can be the result of that work, but I care more about cutting performance than looks any day of the week, and if you do it in stages the carpal tunnel won't set in.

Mike

[MacTech]

I just performed a cutting test that really impressed me, i was slicing up one of those Glaceau VitaminWater bottles (like a gatorade bottle) to make a stand for use in my fog chamber (which i'm going to use as an ultrasonic cleaner for the Sharpmaker rods now)

i started off with my big cutters, the Millie and Para, both cut cleanly and easily through the plastic, with just a bit of resistance when starting the cut, i checked the edges under magnification both before and after cutting, they both had extremely minor areas where the edge had rolled over from cutting the plastic bottle, stropping fixed it

I then grabbed the BRG D4, inspected the edge, then performed the same cuts on another VitaminWater bottle, first thing i noticed was ZDP-189 initiated the cut easier than S30V, less pressure was required to start cutting, and while cutting, the ZDP sailed through the plastic with almost no resistance

i grabbed the magnifier, expecting to have rolled edges, but there was *NO* damage to the edge at all, it was like i hadn't even cut with it, i guess ZDP-189 *IS* durable stuff after all.....

[jaislandboy]

hey Mactech, I don't have a Microscope but I can tell u that It took almost 1-2 yrs of undoing bad habits and learning how to sharpen my edges.....Properly.....and I prefer freehand sharpening now......mostly Stropping is what i do.....with a KnivesPlus strop (leather, loaded with green CrO2 "rouge") which i mounted on a paddle....or I'll use a ceramic dowel shaped "steel" for my hawkbills....and mimic the "stropping" motion....leading with the spine/edge trailing....but I guess my point is that....
Now I can fully appreciate how sharp a Clipit can be whether the blade is 440c, S30v, VG10 or ZDP....seems that 30 degrees inclusive (or less) is Scary Sharp to me....now that I finally have "correct" technique.....or so I hope.... :rolleyes:

[gunmike1]

Sharpening is extremely easy if you use microbevels no matter what steel you are using. Since I keep my knives so acute, it only takes a few passes at 15 degrees to get a really nice edge on a knife, ZDP 189, S30V, or whatever other steel I have ever tried, plus it helps to minimize burring. Cliff Stamp is the first one who suggested I try using microbevels when I was a newbie on bladeforums, and I will never go back. Sal essentially says to use microbevels in the Sharpmaker video by saying to set a 15 degree backbavel, then sharpen at 20 degrees. I just go much thinner with my backbevels and use a 15 degree microbevel. With mibrobevels you are only sharpening a very tiny strip of steel, thus it is fast and easy to do no matter what steel you are using. Plus, since you are only taking off minimal steel, you are extending the lifetime of your knife. The key is to set your backbevel, and every month to few months you will want to reset your backbevel. You do that when it is taking longer to sharpen, and you can see the mibrobevel start to widen with your microscope (Sal mentions once a year in the video, which sounds about right for a lot of knives if they aren't used exclusively and sharpened a lot).

Mike