How much does legality factor in your choice of SD knife?

[Steel Vader]

Hi all,

Hope this post is sufficiently different from the "waved D4/E4" post below so as not to annoy.

Have been thinking about posting this question for awhile, and I think the question is different enough to warrant its own post.

The question is, how much does "legality" factor into your choice of knives for SD carry?

Where I live, it is a state FELONY to carry in one's pocket any folder with a blade length over 3 inches. So I have never bought or carried any pocket knives with blades over that length.

I have been seriously considering a waved D4 as my next purchase, but I'm also tempted by the waved E4.

Sure, the E4 is "illegal," but my current thinking is that it will only come to the attention of LEO if I have to use it for SD. And by that point, the length of the blade would be the least of my legal worries.

So is it worth it in your mind to have the extra blade length, legal issues aside?

This question also applies to other SD knives like the Civilian. Non-jury-friendly apperance, and mega-length aside, do those of you who carry them just figure that when the SHTF, you want to best tool for ending the situation?

Sometimes I think the Civilian is a better choice, IF it enables a scenario where deploying the Civilian causes an attacker to back off, due to its "scare factor" ... and the blade doesn't actually have to be used. In my mind that would be much preferable to actually using, say, a waved D4 on someone.

Interested to hear you thoughts regarding these legal considerations, and how they influence your choice of carry, or not.

-SV -

[Hannibal Lecter]

My Dear Friend,

the length of the blade would be the least of my legal worries.

No, my friend, they would just be the start of HUGE legal worries.

The legality of the blade length WILL make the difference between your looking like a homicidal maniac and a law-abiding citizen exercising your right to self-defense. It is EXACTLY like using reloads in your concealed carry handgun - you will ALWAYS look like the bad guy.

I own a number of knives that are above the legal limit for concealed carry in my jurisdiction; these wonderful knives stay in the safe.

Besides, the difference between the utility of a Delica and and Endura in an actual self-defense situation is negligible. As my old handgun instructor used to say, "It isn't the caliber of the gun; it is the caliber of the man behind it."

--------
Hannibal

[Padawan]

I suspect that this thread will bring out a variety of opinions, but mine is pretty basic. I'd suggest staying within the legal limits, especially when considering something you intend to use for personal defence, since such usage will ultimately be placed under intense scrutiny that virtually no other usage would be. In the extremely unfortunate event that you ever have to utilise the knife to defend yourself, you will end up in court. Once faced with that scenario, you'll be far better off if the "weapon" you used was not one deemed illegal in the eyes of the law. If a Delica proves insufficient in your defence situation, the extra 7/8" of blade length provided by an Endura almost certainly won't alter the outcome.

Whoops - it looks like Hannibal and I essentially share the same opinion, and he was a bit quicker than I was.

[denn]

i'd have to agree with Hannibal and Padawan. stay within the legal limits if intended for self defense. it will def. work against you in court, bigtime. also, an aggressive appearance of the knife, like a civvie, will also work against you, trust me. one tip to add: make sure it's a "well-used" knife with some scratches and dings and stuff. that way you can claim and prove that you "always carry this knife and use it for anything from peeling fruit to cutting fishing line". in your scenario using a spanking new shiny 4" civilian would be the worst thing to do. think hard about stuff like this, imagine it in your mind how things would go and how the system works; common sense will get you far enough to stay safe.

one hint for people who can only carry small knives, but those models might not appeal. say you like the Manix, and you'd rather carry that than a 3"'er...; what you can do is grind down the blade to when it reaches 3".

sure, you'll end up with a 3" Manix, but you still got a Manix......

if you or anyone would like details on how to perform such a steel surgery on a blade, just send a PM.

[Chucula]

i personally do not follow the law. For one, I am on a school campus and weapons of any type are not allowed. This means i cant carry anything except a ladybug or jester or something similar. Also, automatic's are illegal just about everywhere. I know that if there is a criminal out there who wants to rob me, he carries at least a knife with the expectation that I do not have a weapon.

I may be making a big mistake, but I think I am smart enough to use my knife (protech godson) in such a way that I will never get in trouble with the law. If I stab and kill some guy, it will be because he was trying to kill/stab me, or kill a family member, etc. I think that my reputation will also help me out.

The one thing I worry about is a police officer seeing the clip and asking to see the knife. In that situation, I am very confident that it will be confiscated. Not too big of a deal, but still it will be disappointing to see it on ebay or something.

On the other hand, I have been considering a waved delica for carry. I think it may be a much better solution than the auto.

[denn]

The one thing I worry about is a police officer seeing the clip and asking to see the knife. In that situation, I am very confident that it will be confiscated. Not too big of a deal, but still it will be disappointing to see it on ebay or something.
.

this is one of my worst nightmare scenario's also. in my country it's even worse. the police has little to no knowledge on knife-legislations in the law, so they basically confiscate EVERYTHING that even remotely looks like a knife. i pack a military on a daily basis, and that's legal, but i'm 100% sure that if i get in a routine search event, the knife will be taken away from me. then i would say that the thing is legal, they might say i could be right, but they'er not sure, and if a police officer is not sure they have the right to confisquate it anyway. then they tell you "contact this and that precinct-station and explain the situation". by the time you're that deep in it, your knife will have magically disappeared........> "sorry, it's gone".......

[bowarrow2000]

If you are really concerned about SD I would suggest that you get yourself licensed to carry a handgun. But if a knife is all you have or can get best of luck. A baseball bat or tire checker works well but not legal in most states.

[cobrajoe]

I agree. If you do have a large knife, the police could still confiscate it, and then you are left without your protection.

For myself, I think I'd rather go with a smaller blade that dosen't give up grip. I belive my dodo would be quite the effective tool and it only has a 2 inch blade. Also, don't forget about the SPOT/Swick, I think one of these would be a great backup to your EDC.

[Padawan]

I may be making a big mistake, but I think I am smart enough to use my knife (protech godson) in such a way that I will never get in trouble with the law. If I stab and kill some guy, it will be because he was trying to kill/stab me, or kill a family member, etc. I think that my reputation will also help me out.

I believe that you are, but of course, everyone is entitled to make his or her own decisions. Regardless of whether you used the knife with good reason, the fact that it was an illegal weapon will remain. Consider a different hypothetical scenario, where an individual killed an intruder in his home using an automatic weapon that he was not legally entitled to possess. The fact that the homeowner may have been within his legal rights to defend himself and his home using a firearm would in no way exonerate him for his use of an illegal weapon in doing so.

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: Up here in blue state wisconsin there's no concealed carry. I'd like to carry my asp more often but it's awkward and attracts attention so a Yojimbo and delica are what I usually carry. I'd rather carry my glock but the Dems won't let me. :spyder:

[markg]

I have read these debates for sometime, and I have come to this conclusion...

Here is the problem in the debate, there is a fundamental assumption that a 3 inch blade is not as effective for martial use as a 4-5 inch blade. Well if that is true, then a 5 inch blade is not as effective as 7 inch blade... Pretty soon we will all need swords. The question is this, is a 3 inch blade effective as a fighting tool? I would say yes. I am sure Mr. Janich can chime in on this one, as he has championed this concept (look at the Yojimbo and Ronin). You can fight, and fight effectively with a Delica. In all these arguments, there is the assumption that a 3 inch blade is not as effective as a 4+ inch blade. I don't believe that is true.

So you can carry an illegal 4 inch blade, that is an effective self-defense tool... Or you can carry a 3 inch blade that is an effective self-defense tool. The latter gives you the best of both worlds.

If you "like" certain knives, and want to carry it... Keep it in the home. I am pretty sure, that if in the event of a home invasion, you can carve someone up all you like with a Civilian with relative impunity!

You have heard the old line... "I would rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6..." I will add... "I would rather be acquitted by 12, then raped by one lonely prisoner..." Carrying an illegal knife makes you a criminal. So if you do use it, you have two strikes against you (using a weapon, and it being illegal). Think about it... Protect yourself, and be charged and convicted of manslaughter. Think your wife is going to "wait around" for you while you are in prison? Think the kids want to come and visit dad? Think your career is going survive? So tell me... you saved your life only to lose it.

Anyway... I guess I vote with keeping it legal. And you are in luck, Spyderco gives you lots of options of doing that. :)

[yablanowitz]

I usually try to stay out of the self defense threads, but I might as well chip in my 2 cents.

1) Carry something legal. My Police models stay at home because they are 3/16 of an inch over legal length here.

2) Train with your every day carry knife. Carrying a dedicated SD knife makes very little sense to me. Sure, it may be a little sharper, but considering it only for SD places it squarely in the "weapon" category in a society where weapons are increasingly frowned upon. Learning (training) to defend yourself with the pocket tool you used to open your mail and slice your sandwich for lunch makes far more sense to me. Not only do you get far more use out of it, you will be more familiar with your blade at crunch time if you have been using it a dozen or more times a day. It will also look better to the officer taking your statement, the prosecutor, judge and jury if it gets that far.

[Jakemug]

My only .02 cents, never rely on the "scare factor"
The moment you deploy any weapon in a SD situation with the hopes of scaring the attacker away, is the exact moment they will take it from you and beat/stab/shoot you to death.
Best to use the most tried and true SD method whenever possible.......RUN! :eek:

[Th232]

I'd keep it legal, and, if possible, make it as NKP friendly as possible. Thus, for me, that'd be a Lil Temp. Funny, for all our tight knife laws, we've got nothing on blade length :confused: . Oh, and as a preventative measure, carry a copy of your state's knife laws around, for both ownership and carry.

[JD Spydo]

The legal system and the laws are so ambiguous anymore that I believe that most law enforcement is selective. And what I mean by that is that most of the people that they arrest most of the time have done something really stupid to draw undue attention to themselves. Doctor Lecter said it best some time ago when he stated that the 2 most abundant elements in our universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity . Most of these bozos beg to get busted.

If you conduct yourself in a civilized manner then most cops just simply have no interest in you per se at all. There are enough bar flies and blatant losers out there that the police really have enough to do without bothering you or me. When you drive just do one simple thing. Obey the speed limit for crying out loud and don't do turns without using your signal. I obey the traffic laws and I haven't been stopped since 1995.

I carry pretty much what I want to carry and I have never been acosted officially by a LEO at all about a knife. I have struck up conversations with the ones I know and see here locally at convenience stores and they know I have a knife on me but don't seem to be concerned. One cop I used to go to High School with always enjoys looking at my Spyders and other knives whenever I see him.

What it all boils down to is this. The Legal System that we live under here in the USA is nothing more than a big business driven by lawyers and the Bar Association. No lawyer represents you>> they represent the court systems. If you don't believe me just ask one of them. So with all that being said if you get on the black list of the local authorities you are going to end up in court and or jail even if you don't do anything wrong particularly. Government is corrupt just by it's very nature and for whatever reason Government doesn't want you to have the wherewithal to defend yourself. I consider it a GOD given right to be able to defend myself. There are several good and well meaning Police out there but even the best intended ones can't be everywhere all the time. But you must understand that the government and police both will admit to you that they are under no obligation what so ever to protect you per se. And they have admitted that in print on several occasions. If you want to protect yourself>> you are going to have to implement that yourself. That leaves one alternative>> either prepare to defend yourself or prepare to be a victim irrespective of what tool you use to do it.

[Puyallupknifegu]

My vote is for the waved D4...I carry it every day. That means it's my EDC and I use it...a lot. I open boxes. I know that I can deploy it quickly, and have shown it to an off duty police officer telling him that "I like to carry small knives so that it won't upset cops", and he told me that I should be fine up to about 3 and a half inches!! This coming from an LEO of a city that was awkwardly trying to ban waved knives! And he personally carrried a large Columbia River M16 CE Tanto tip Special Forces version with close to a 4" blade! :p

As your fellow knife brother, I agree that we should all have the option to defend ourselves...something our founding fathers were pretty adamant about, but in today's PC and weapon/violence etc world, I'd rather try and defend myself with something that most likely won't land me in jail...


I hope this helps and this is only my 2 cents...


Tim :)

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: Assuming I'm not responsible for loved ones at the time, I'll take quite a beatin' (empty handed) before I feel threatened enough to draw my knife. Weapons or multiple assailants bumps that up a notch, of course. :spyder:

[Slatts]

from San Antonio Texas believe it or not....

Sec. 21-17. Certain knives prohibited generally; exceptions; penalty for violation.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to intentionally or knowingly carry on or about his person a knife with a blade less than five and one-half (5 1/2) inches in length, which knife is equipped with a lock mechanism so that upon opening, it becomes a fixed blade knife.
(b) The above prohibition set forth in subsection (a) shall not be applicable to a person carrying such a knife:
(1) In the actual discharge of his duties as a peace officer, a member of the armed forces or national guard, or a guard employed by a penal institution;
(2) On his own premises or premises under his control;
(3) Traveling;
(4) Engaged in lawful hunting, fishing or other lawful sporting activity; or
(5) Using such a knife in connection with a lawful occupation, during such utilization.
(Code 1959, § 26-28.1)

Yes, it says that it's illegal to carry any folding knife that can lock with a blade length UNDER 5 1/2 inches. Given that Texas state law disallows any locking blade knife over 5 1/2 inches, it's officially illegal to carry ANY folding knife with a locking mechanism within the San Antonio city limits.

Is it enforced? Not usually, except for troublemakers that the police need a reason to book and put in the pokie. I have heard that the City Council passed this ordinance when the local gang activity (i.e. Mexican Mafia) was getting out of control about ten years ago.

[smcfalls13]

Does blade length of a SD knife really matter that much?

Maybe I'm wrong(most likely) but I find it hard to believe that my having only a 2.5" blade would get me killed where a 4" blade would save my life. They both cause bleeding, and bleeding causes low blood pressure, and low blood pressure causes unconsciousness.

Maybe my anatomy is a little fuzzy, but a 2.5" blade is more than sufficient to several any of the major arteries in the arms or neck. Is it a power thing, where a bigger blade makes you feel better? I just don't get it. :confused:

[Dr. Snubnose]

While this may be true what you say Scott a smaller blade will not reach the major organs when you thrust...sorry 2.5 inches is not enough unless you really know your stuff...and you have to be able to apply what you know with pin-point precision (hard to do under stress unless you train for it a lot)..... that is not to say you couldn't defend yourself with something that small I'm only saying it is much more difficult...even a protruding thumb nail can be effective if you where to use it to cut but the opportunities to apply such techniques might not avail themselves so small is something I wouldn't bet my life on...this is a case where 1 1/2" to 2" more could make all the difference....Doc :D