I heard a lot about this book, like it's an eye opener on free-hand sharpening and everything. So I finally found one and decided to buy it to improve my skill with a stone.
I have mixed feeling about the book. I really appreciate his knowledge on the subject and interesting take on carbon Vs Stainless, why you shouldn't oil your stone etc etc. Plus, the technique he describes is very straight forward and gave a crazy sharp edge on a beater in a few minutes. The pictures of him shaving with a double-bit axe is certainly a good testimony.
here's my thing. in chapter three he says that even if we got a good result sharpening free hand, you can't even compare that edge with one done with an assisted sharpener. He uses sort of a jig with the stone to keep the edge consistant and says the result are much better. He also emphasises the final touch should be made on something very fine...such as ceramic! Now this book that I bought to "learn" to sharpen freehand is basically telling me I should use my Sharpmaker more often. I really hoped he was going to tell me there is nothing like sharpening freehand....and well seems it's not the case. He didn't say much about sharpening serrated knives either. He just said they are good steak knives and the rest of the time it's simply a bad idea. And last but not least, he never once mentionned the strop, which I thought was an absolute necessity when you want to make the most out of your edge.
So: Am I glad I bought the book? **** yeah! Did I improve my free hand sharpening skill? Sure did! Do I feel like some aspects of sharpening have been ignored and wished it was a more complete guide? **** straight!
There it is. Worth reading!
-Dean
Book review: John Juranitch sharpening guide
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Jimmy_Dean
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Razor Edge guide...???
Hello Jimmy Dean my fine friend :cool: . I am wondering if you are talking about the "Razor Edge Book of Sharpening" or does Mr. Juranitch have a new book out by chance. I have had my Razor Edge book for almost 5 years now. I am hoping that he does come out with a new book if this one is not new. I agree that his input is very valuable. I know my pal Vampyrewolf will have something profound to say about this one. JD :spyder: O
Dean, I've been thinking about getting that book ( I'm not that good with the SharpMaker and would love to learn freehand better then how I do it now) What I don't understand from your post is that he says that the final touch up should be done on ceramic and then you conclude that he is basically telling that you should use your sharpmaker more often.Jimmy_Dean wrote: here's my thing. in chapter three he says that even if we got a good result sharpening free hand, you can't even compare that edge with one done with an assisted sharpener. He uses sort of a jig with the stone to keep the edge consistant and says the result are much better. He also emphasises the final touch should be made on something very fine...such as ceramic! Now this book that I bought to "learn" to sharpen freehand is basically telling me I should use my Sharpmaker more often. I really hoped he was going to tell me there is nothing like sharpening freehand....and well seems it's not the case.
-Dean
Spyderco has a set of ceramic benchstones (2x8" ultra/fine/coarse). So you could do the touch up on the fine or ultra stone ???? Or does he actually refer to using the sharpmaker or something to assists in keeping a consistent angle?
Thanks,
Ted
Quite frankly I think the best guide to sharpening you can buy, is the DVD by Murray Carter. You can contact him directly or try and buy it from Kellem knives. At some point I wanted to summarize my experience with sharpening on Japanese Waterstones in a tread on bladeforums, but after watching the DVD there wasn't really any point in doing that anymore. I don't think there is much you can learn from the razors edge book, which can be summarized rather quickly:
1.) Most blades you can buy are ground too thick to be good slicers and need to be thinned out. Meaning low angle and coarse stone. Just scrub away. You don't have to go all the way to the edge. Being a professional, Juranich doesn't really care whether the blade is scratched afterwards or not. That is what he calls the relief.
2.) Increase the angle but not much and scrub in a new edge on a coarse stone till you have a burr. That is the primary edge.
3.) Increase the angle again (little) and with light pushing strokes sharpen the knife with a secondary bevel on a finer stone.
THE END
1. supplemental) All stones are used dry.
2.sup) There is no such thing as a too polished blade. A polished blade will always cut better than a coarser sharpened blade. Forget anything you have heard about microteeth. If you can detect microteeth you need a finer stone.
3. sup) The blade is always pushed on the last step.
This is NOT necessarily my own opinion.
Personally I do this:
For the same reason Juranich uses a dry stone, I use a pulling (stropping stroke) on the last step (like Murray Carter), but I use water on my water stones and do not use them dry. I also think that at least Spyderco knives have sufficient relief, even though I gave it a try and increased the relief on my Pacific. I don't like to increase the angle at every step, even though I think it is very important to increase the angle if you have build up a large burr on the coarse stone. Either you can simply increase the angle, or you can take a couple of light passes at an angle that is AT LEAST 5 deg. higher than your primary angle on a relatively fine stone to remove the burr and than return to your primary angle and hone it on a finer stone with a few more strokes than you would need otherwise, to remove the "distortion of the bevel" that you introduced by increasing the angle for a few passes. I prefer this method of burr removal over the one that Murray Carter uses. But what do I know.
1.) Most blades you can buy are ground too thick to be good slicers and need to be thinned out. Meaning low angle and coarse stone. Just scrub away. You don't have to go all the way to the edge. Being a professional, Juranich doesn't really care whether the blade is scratched afterwards or not. That is what he calls the relief.
2.) Increase the angle but not much and scrub in a new edge on a coarse stone till you have a burr. That is the primary edge.
3.) Increase the angle again (little) and with light pushing strokes sharpen the knife with a secondary bevel on a finer stone.
THE END
1. supplemental) All stones are used dry.
2.sup) There is no such thing as a too polished blade. A polished blade will always cut better than a coarser sharpened blade. Forget anything you have heard about microteeth. If you can detect microteeth you need a finer stone.
3. sup) The blade is always pushed on the last step.
This is NOT necessarily my own opinion.
Personally I do this:
For the same reason Juranich uses a dry stone, I use a pulling (stropping stroke) on the last step (like Murray Carter), but I use water on my water stones and do not use them dry. I also think that at least Spyderco knives have sufficient relief, even though I gave it a try and increased the relief on my Pacific. I don't like to increase the angle at every step, even though I think it is very important to increase the angle if you have build up a large burr on the coarse stone. Either you can simply increase the angle, or you can take a couple of light passes at an angle that is AT LEAST 5 deg. higher than your primary angle on a relatively fine stone to remove the burr and than return to your primary angle and hone it on a finer stone with a few more strokes than you would need otherwise, to remove the "distortion of the bevel" that you introduced by increasing the angle for a few passes. I prefer this method of burr removal over the one that Murray Carter uses. But what do I know.
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Jimmy_Dean
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Silly me, forgot to mention the name of the book.
Yes JD it's the razor edge book of sharpening. Quite an interesting piece of litterature but not exactly what I had in mind.
Ted, he uses something that's called a sharpening guide, which looks like some sort of a clamp that hold the knife against the stone at a preset angle. You just rub the whole thing on the stone until you get a burr and flip sides. If I had a scanner I,d post a picture, which would be a lot better than this effort at a description. In any case, page 71 says:
"A quick check of the edge feels very good, and it makes an excellent shaving edge. It effortlessly pops hair from the arm. You will readily notice a huge difference between an edge that is sharpened free-hand and one that is sharpened by using a guide. There is just no comparaison."
Now, remember I bought that book to become a killer with a stone, and the world's foremost expert on the subject of sharpening is telling me I'll get a better result using an assisted sharpener system. So I just feel like using the sharpmaker more. that's what I mean by "not really what I expected"
BTW, I'm really into Murray Carter knives and can't wait to buy my first kitchen knives made by him. I also read an article about his sharpening DVD in TK. The reason I didn't go for it is because I don't have japanese water stone and I'm not ready to invest in that at the moment. But I do have a variety of benchstones and DMT hones and it's much more likely that it will be what I use when I,m out camping or fishing. But eventually, I'll see for my self and I'll let you know, HoB.
-Dean
Yes JD it's the razor edge book of sharpening. Quite an interesting piece of litterature but not exactly what I had in mind.
Ted, he uses something that's called a sharpening guide, which looks like some sort of a clamp that hold the knife against the stone at a preset angle. You just rub the whole thing on the stone until you get a burr and flip sides. If I had a scanner I,d post a picture, which would be a lot better than this effort at a description. In any case, page 71 says:
"A quick check of the edge feels very good, and it makes an excellent shaving edge. It effortlessly pops hair from the arm. You will readily notice a huge difference between an edge that is sharpened free-hand and one that is sharpened by using a guide. There is just no comparaison."
Now, remember I bought that book to become a killer with a stone, and the world's foremost expert on the subject of sharpening is telling me I'll get a better result using an assisted sharpener system. So I just feel like using the sharpmaker more. that's what I mean by "not really what I expected"
BTW, I'm really into Murray Carter knives and can't wait to buy my first kitchen knives made by him. I also read an article about his sharpening DVD in TK. The reason I didn't go for it is because I don't have japanese water stone and I'm not ready to invest in that at the moment. But I do have a variety of benchstones and DMT hones and it's much more likely that it will be what I use when I,m out camping or fishing. But eventually, I'll see for my self and I'll let you know, HoB.
-Dean
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Jimmy_Dean
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Montreal Canada
not negative at all, friend. I actually like the way you put it.
hope you'll have a better day tomorrow, btw!
Yeah I head about the sharpening on a concrete block thing and it just blew my socks off. Can't wait to see that one. But are you saying I could use his 'stroping' technique on, let's say a spyderco white benchstone and still get decent results? Cause if it's the case, I'll track down one of those DVDs right away.
For the record, how good are you with this technique?
Thanks
-Dean
hope you'll have a better day tomorrow, btw!
Yeah I head about the sharpening on a concrete block thing and it just blew my socks off. Can't wait to see that one. But are you saying I could use his 'stroping' technique on, let's say a spyderco white benchstone and still get decent results? Cause if it's the case, I'll track down one of those DVDs right away.
For the record, how good are you with this technique?
Thanks
-Dean
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David Lowry
I while back I received a black bladed Delcia through a trade. I took this knife out and it was the sharpest thing I had ever seen or held. The edge was like a mirror. I can't even express how sharp this knife was. Unreal.
After asking around from the person I got it from I found out that he got it from a forumite over at KF. I PM'ed this guy and asked him how he put an edge like that on the knife.
His answer: Japanese Waterstones.
The edge was freaking awesome.
I may send a knife or two his way as he said for a minimal fee he'd sharpen some. After what I saw I want all my edges to be like that one :)
After asking around from the person I got it from I found out that he got it from a forumite over at KF. I PM'ed this guy and asked him how he put an edge like that on the knife.
His answer: Japanese Waterstones.
The edge was freaking awesome.
I may send a knife or two his way as he said for a minimal fee he'd sharpen some. After what I saw I want all my edges to be like that one :)
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Jimmy_Dean
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- Location: Montreal Canada
Thanks for that input David,
makes waterstones that much more appealing. They're pricy as **** though. I have to buy a digi cam before I buy yet another sharpening tool. And I understand the soaking time makes them a bit more complicated to use than the typical benchstone.
In the end, it's all about the sharp edge :cool:
makes waterstones that much more appealing. They're pricy as **** though. I have to buy a digi cam before I buy yet another sharpening tool. And I understand the soaking time makes them a bit more complicated to use than the typical benchstone.
In the end, it's all about the sharp edge :cool:
Yes the technique applies to any kind of sharpening medium. But I think it is more important on some than on others. There is the big "issue" whether to push or pull the blade. People that like to push say pulling forms to much of a burr. Personally, I haven't really see that. The people that like to pull say pushing the blade will degrade the edge, especially in the final steps because you push the well formed edge right into a hard obstacle (the abrasive particles that are sticking out of the surface and the swarf that the blade is plowing into). I think that this is not to big an issue on fine and, most importantly, very hard abrasives such as ceramic rods, because the edge still glides. Waterstones on the other hand are so soft that the blade easily bites into the stone and there is lots of mud, so you go edge on into an abrasive.
Fact is, that my edges have been better than ever and I get there much, much faster with the Carter technique than with anything I had tried before. As a matter of fact, I had come to the conclusion not too long before I bought the Carter DVD, that pulling is the way to go for me, and yes, I am using waterstones. It was nice to see my own observations being supported by Mr. Carters recommendations. However Carter argues that an edge will always benefit from pulling no matter what the abrasive and he demonstrates that even on the sharpmaker. The reason why Mr. Carter is promoting waterstones, is the usual argument that they cut the fastest and are a pleasure to use in comparison to oil stones and while sharpening need no more than a handful of water to wash away the mud to expose a fresh cutting surface, while any stones used with out cutting liquid (like the sharpmaker) need to be scrubbed and cleaned in intervals. However, I noticed that Mr. Carter is demonstrating his technique on two King stones (1000 and 6000 grid) which can be bought as a combination stone and can be had for $28 (http://www.bladegallery.com/accessories ... y.asp?id=6)
But there something that a DVD can give you that a book can not. No matter which side you are on (pulling or pushing), you have the chance to observe somebody why really knows what he is doing and I think you can pick up a lot by just watching him. Just as an example, I have always started at the hilt when sharpening but now I copy the type of motion Mr. Carter shows in his DVD, going from tip to hilt and it is a lot easier and smoother.
As to how sharp I get an edge, that is really hard to quantify and depends also on how acute I choose an edge to make. My bigger folders like the Manix and the Lil' T are sharpened to around 15 deg per side, and I can cut free hanging paper towles from the side pretty much without snagging. I can also cut into the middle of a free hanging paper towel by just pulling the tip over the surface and pull the cut cleanly all the way out of the towel. That is actually a whole lot easier than cutting in from the side. Obviously a papertowel is a lot more difficult to cut than a piece of paper and I find it a lot more difficult than shaving armhair as well. I use generic, soft. multiply papertowels from Stop and Shop. Not the stiff kind but the one that is kind of quilted? Another test that I use is to cut a 2 in x 2 in piece of thin magazin or advertisement flyer paper fold it in half and stand it at a right angle on the edge and cut the paper in half while it is free standing. I don't know how that compares to other standards like thread cutting, but it is good enough for me.
My only complained about the Carter DVD is that it is too long and would benefit from editing (mainly cutting) and devision into chapters accessible from the main menu. The "sharpening chisles by Harrelson" is exemplary in that regard. As it is, its a 2.5 hour frontal lecture by Mr. Carter.
Hope this helps.
Fact is, that my edges have been better than ever and I get there much, much faster with the Carter technique than with anything I had tried before. As a matter of fact, I had come to the conclusion not too long before I bought the Carter DVD, that pulling is the way to go for me, and yes, I am using waterstones. It was nice to see my own observations being supported by Mr. Carters recommendations. However Carter argues that an edge will always benefit from pulling no matter what the abrasive and he demonstrates that even on the sharpmaker. The reason why Mr. Carter is promoting waterstones, is the usual argument that they cut the fastest and are a pleasure to use in comparison to oil stones and while sharpening need no more than a handful of water to wash away the mud to expose a fresh cutting surface, while any stones used with out cutting liquid (like the sharpmaker) need to be scrubbed and cleaned in intervals. However, I noticed that Mr. Carter is demonstrating his technique on two King stones (1000 and 6000 grid) which can be bought as a combination stone and can be had for $28 (http://www.bladegallery.com/accessories ... y.asp?id=6)
But there something that a DVD can give you that a book can not. No matter which side you are on (pulling or pushing), you have the chance to observe somebody why really knows what he is doing and I think you can pick up a lot by just watching him. Just as an example, I have always started at the hilt when sharpening but now I copy the type of motion Mr. Carter shows in his DVD, going from tip to hilt and it is a lot easier and smoother.
As to how sharp I get an edge, that is really hard to quantify and depends also on how acute I choose an edge to make. My bigger folders like the Manix and the Lil' T are sharpened to around 15 deg per side, and I can cut free hanging paper towles from the side pretty much without snagging. I can also cut into the middle of a free hanging paper towel by just pulling the tip over the surface and pull the cut cleanly all the way out of the towel. That is actually a whole lot easier than cutting in from the side. Obviously a papertowel is a lot more difficult to cut than a piece of paper and I find it a lot more difficult than shaving armhair as well. I use generic, soft. multiply papertowels from Stop and Shop. Not the stiff kind but the one that is kind of quilted? Another test that I use is to cut a 2 in x 2 in piece of thin magazin or advertisement flyer paper fold it in half and stand it at a right angle on the edge and cut the paper in half while it is free standing. I don't know how that compares to other standards like thread cutting, but it is good enough for me.
My only complained about the Carter DVD is that it is too long and would benefit from editing (mainly cutting) and devision into chapters accessible from the main menu. The "sharpening chisles by Harrelson" is exemplary in that regard. As it is, its a 2.5 hour frontal lecture by Mr. Carter.
Hope this helps.
Really mirror polish you'll get from about 8000 on up, but it starts already around 6000, especially if you use a Nagura stone and let mud build up. You can buy a 1200/8000 combination stone for about $45 also at bladegallery, which would probably be my recommendation for a starter. Throw in a stone holder for $10 and a Nagura stone for $8 and you are good to go, even though you can use the waterstone simply on a wet paper towel. The Nagura stone however is a must for the 6000/8000 side.