Ball bearing/Linerlock

[spydutch]

Spyderco claims that their ball bearing lock is one of the strongest they make.
How come I can move the blade of my D'Allara and Dodo slightly up and down while there is absolutely no movement in my Military?

BTW the little ring on the spring of the D'Allara lock where is it made of and will it last?

Thanks in advance.

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: So what, a little play? Try to get the ball to fail! :spyder:

[Senate]

you have to look at these two different locks the way they are built and work.

my view is:
basically the liner lock is a small tongue of metal blocking the blade to be pushed back, it has the thickness of a liner which is usually not big on spydercos (as opposed to integral liner lock on a Sebenza for exemple). now with enough pressure I'm sure you can bet this small tongue of metal and force the lock without breaking the knife.

on the opposite hand the ball lock consist of a emprisonned ball moving forward and blocking the tang of the blade. if you start to apply pressure on the blade to close it, the ball is lifted up, but there's no place to go this way because it's closed so if you continue to force the lock you're going to break the handle or the pivot therefore the knife BEFORE breaking the lock. this is the difference I see.

in the first case the lock can break without breaking the knife, in the second case the knife will break first.

my humble opinion.

feel free to correct me.

[Joe Talmadge]

Spyderco claims that their ball bearing lock is one of the strongest they make.
How come I can move the blade of my D'Allara and Dodo slightly up and down while there is absolutely no movement in my Military?

Blade play, and lock strength, are not necessarily related. Blade play has to do with the fit and tolerances of the lock in the locked position. Strength has to do with when the lock will fail structureally when put under load. Blade play could compromise the strength, but doesn't always.

Specific to the blade play with your ball locks, this could be Spyderco still putting the finishing touches on a still-fairly-new lock format.

Joe

[Vincent]

I think if they made it with no play, the lock just like on axis locks would be evry hard to disengage. It needs a little movemnet or else it will really be locked in there hard and wont be smooth and the user will have to force the lock./

[spydutch]

Thanks you all. I'm reassured now.

[Joe Talmadge]

I think if they made it with no play, the lock just like on axis locks would be evry hard to disengage. It needs a little movemnet or else it will really be locked in there hard and wont be smooth and the user will have to force the lock./

Vincent, it's not only possible, but reality that you can build a knife that has a lock that is not hard to disengage, and yet has no blade play. Blade play should never be designed into a lock -- it's the result of tolerance and execution issues. Some locks are harder to keep play-free than others]tiny[/i] bit of blade play in a lockback than a framelock, since lockbacks seem to be difficult to make without play, although I can point to plenty of lockbacks that are play-free.

[Vincent]

Vincent, it's not only possible, but reality that you can build a knife that has a lock that is not hard to disengage, and yet has no blade play. Blade play should never be designed into a lock -- it's the result of tolerance and execution issues. Some locks are harder to keep play-free than others]tiny[/i] bit of blade play in a lockback than a framelock, since lockbacks seem to be difficult to make without play, although I can point to plenty of lockbacks that are play-free.

sure, just not an axis or ball bearning. with an axis, if it was dead on with no blade play, it wouldent close smoothly. It would rub and be hard to move.

[cheez]

Wrong again. Both the Dodo and my Axis knives have no play up/down. Bladeplay sideways isn't really due to the lock, and can be set to a specified amount [up to zero] by turning the pivot screw.

Keno

[Vincent]

maybe we think of blade play as somthing different. Ive handles a total of 6 benchmade axis knives, all has verticle blade play.

[Joe Talmadge]

sure, just not an axis or ball bearning. with an axis, if it was dead on with no blade play, it wouldent close smoothly. It would rub and be hard to move.

I wince a little bit every time you bring this up, since I'm not sure how thrilled Sal is with discussing the axis here. On the other hand, I'm not sure if I'll ever convince you, but the (seemingly limited) experience you've had with the axis is extremely non-representative. I have my 710 in front of me now, there is not even a hint of blade play, and the lock releases easily with no stickiness -- which is also the case with my 3 other axis locks, and almost every other one I've handled. It's also the experience of most people on the forums in general. A little lock stickiness or blade play happens just occasionally, indicating that it's more of a little QA issue (as with similar reports with the compression lock), rather than a real problem, or worse yet, a designed-in "feature".

Your experience also seems to have led you to believe the axis is less reliable than the liner lock, which pretty much speaks for itself as to how representative your experience has been, IMO.

Joe

[Vincent]

Every knife I own has veryticle blade play. Everyone.

I consider verticle blade play as when the blade is locked out in an open position, abd you greao the handle and secure it and then grap the tip of the blade. The Blade play happens when you move the blade and it moves slightly. The blade will move up and down slightly, just where the stabalizer bar and the lock meet.

This isint an axis lock but it shows what I am talkig about the best


The bar that keep the knife from flipping over itself is postioned in a place and the axis lock acts for the opposite direction. The 6 benchmade axis locks I have used have always had verticle blade play. Its just there to make it a smoother experiece, because if it is perfect, you will have to drag the lock over the steel, when the lock engages the blade. A little flexibility, is a good thing and on all 6 have had this,

but the (seemingly limited) experience you've had with the axis is extremely non-representative

How is 6 knives not being experices, if any 2 should be enogh.

I have my 710 in front of me now, there is not even a hint of blade play, and the lock releases easily with no stickiness

I have mine right here and yes I have blade play as well as my 705-04 which has the same. and the other 4 knives which I have used, 710hs,806,732,941 all had blade play.

our experience also seems to have led you to believe the axis is less reliable than the liner lock, which pretty much speaks for itself as to how representative your experience has been, IMO.

Where did I say that, the axis lock is prone to failure from very hard spine whacks, but in general user, not using the spine of the knife, the axis is vastly supirior. The Liner lock is the most prone to fail, if you ask me, Still doesnt mean I would take my 710 or 705 over my MIlitarym because I simply just wouldent because its not a better knife.

[EarthDog]

:spyder: So what, a little play? Try to get the ball to fail! :spyder:

I have, and the ball lock on my Dodo does fail, consistently. It's kind'o scary to have it suddenly release when I'm pressing steadily on the top of the blade (taking care to keep fingers out of the way). Had a problem with the ball lock on my first Dodo and had it replaced.

And I'm taking Vincent's advice to contact warranty/repair. I assume it can be resolved since I read good things from others. Hope so, cause I like the Dodo a LOT!

[Joe Talmadge]

How is 6 knives not being experices, if any 2 should be enogh.

If you think 2 is a good sample to draw conclusions from, again I think that speaks for itself, and other readers should consider the source. Even 6 isn't a lot, but no doubt you should not have gotten 6 knives in a row with blade play, considering how so many of us have handled an incredible amount of axis locks and seen that blade play is extremely rare. Just makes you go hmmm, that's all.

Not that there aren't axis locks with some blade play or stickiness to them, but a representative sample would show that it's rare enough to be a rare QA issue, not something designed in or a consistent manufacturing problem.

Where did I say that, the axis lock is prone to failure from very hard spine whacks, but in general user, not using the spine of the knife, the axis is vastly supirior.

Except that it isn't prone to failure from very hard spine whacks. If your description is true, it is non-representative, easy enough to confirm on any "neutral" forum ... and with that, you shouldn't present it as representative.

Joe

[Joe Talmadge]

I have, and the ball lock on my Dodo does fail, consistently. It's kind'o scary to have it suddenly release when I'm pressing steadily on the top of the blade (taking care to keep fingers out of the way). Had a problem with the ball lock on my first Dodo and had it replaced.

Ouch. That thing is busted!

The other moral, of course, is that lock strength and lock reliability are also not strictly related. It's easily possible to make a lock that's enormously strong when subject to one kind of pressure, but slips off when subject to another.

[Vincent]

If you think 2 is a good sample to draw conclusions from, again I think that speaks for itself, and other readers should consider the source. Even 6 isn't a lot, but no doubt you should not have gotten 6 knives in a row with blade play, considering how so many of us have handled an incredible amount of axis locks and seen that blade play is extremely rare. Just makes you go hmmm, that's all.

Not that there aren't axis locks with some blade play or stickiness to them, but a representative sample would show that it's rare enough to be a rare QA issue, not something designed in or a consistent manufacturing problem.



Except that it isn't prone to failure from very hard spine whacks. If your description is true, it is non-representative, easy enough to confirm on any "neutral" forum ... and with that, you shouldn't present it as representative.

Joe

honestly, every knife I have owned has had blade play. In total that is 12 knives. All had blade play no matter what lock. wether it be axis, compression, liner or Lockback. and I can get any of my Axis blades to fail with a spine whack. You really dont know what you are talking about and I dont belive you.


I think it may be impossible to get a Blade with no verticle play, as a blade with no verticle play would ahve to be a sturdy as a fixed. and that is impossible when you have parts that can move inside.

if yopu are right, then ive gone throgh 12 defective knives. I must just have really bad luck

[Joe Talmadge]

You really dont know what you are talking about

Heh, I love the internet, I learn something new about myself every day :)

[Michael Cook]

I have, and the ball lock on my Dodo does fail, consistently. It's kind'o scary to have it suddenly release when I'm pressing steadily on the top of the blade (taking care to keep fingers out of the way). Had a problem with the ball lock on my first Dodo and had it replaced.

And I'm taking Vincent's advice to contact warranty/repair. I assume it can be resolved since I read good things from others. Hope so, cause I like the Dodo a LOT!

:spyder: Sounds like you'll be getting a new dodo sent to you pertty soon!That shure ain't right! :spyder:

[druid]

I first started looking at knives I thought they were all great especially spyderco's but over time I become much more picky. The closest thing to a foolproof lock is a nice thick framelock, however they can be hard to close, and clip placement can become a problem ......... I like liner locks because they're easy to close and they can engage consistently in adverse conditions such as sandy or dirty conditions in my opinion however I would not buy a liner lock without evaluating knife directly to feel of the liner lock will get in the way of its operation while gripping the handle securely and whether there's any vertical blade play or slippage in lock. have as much experience with ball bearing locks but they seem to be difficult to disengage one-handed, I have heard stories about them on engage improperly, and I worry about the lifetime of the spring that is used to hold the ball in place. If you wanna make sure the true knife will never disengage under any circumstances get a fixed blade. Or like I said earlier may be a really high end framelock but both steel and titanium can be slippery when wet so they are not a perfect solution either.

[The Deacon]

Heh, I love the internet, I learn something new about myself every day :)

Joe, most of the regulars here anyway know who you are and have a great deal of respect for your opinions. Know that I, for one, have bookmarks to all your BladeFourm "white papers", and consider them a major resouce. On the other hand, this BF thread is good for an occasionaly chuckle and helps put this "great debate" in perspective. :D