Spyderco Forums

Okay guys, here is our story so far: Spyderco now knows that it can legally manufacture balisongs, and Sal is asking for input on design and preferred features, etc. First I'll post an old quote by Sal on a Spyderco balisong design from the mid '80s, so you can see how far you can think outside of the box:



""...Blade was about 4.5" (115mm). the entire piece was designed more along the line of the Philipine style. thin, light and fast.



We had a "Wee Hawk" style blade, fully serrated. the handle was a single cast material (Titan or aluminum preferred). Holes drilled the length, but the last two holes (closest to latch side) were larger so one could index a larger hole and "drop" open the piece. I didn't include a latch (Don't care for them). I used small magnets to keep it closed. Clip on one handle, tip up."



Next are some of his comments in requesting input from a thread on the Balisong Forum:



"I have a number of light thin Philipine models from 3" blades to 6" blades. I liked the light weight, but not the quality. What are your opinions on weight?



OK, there has to be a latch. I'll yield to the superior experience. But the latch cannot get in the way or damage the blade or latch. (via gate or ?)



In the discussion of material. It seems that the "optimum" weight is very important. Even my son, Eric says my aluminum balis are too light. So I'd like to take this deeper.



First I'd like to make a distinction, for communication purposes. If there are already terms for these thoughts, please correct me.



It seems there are two areas of focus for the balisong;



1) the "bali dance" is the manipulation of the knife in a variety of skilled openings, closings and general "dancing" of the knife. that which most of us do.



Then there is,



2) the "function" of the bali as a cutting tool, weapon, striking tool, yawara, etc.



Some of the design parameters are for the dance, some for the function. Is it possible to create a design that fulfills both functions?



For example; Is it the ideal weight that is more important or the proper balance? would a lighter handle with weights at the ends of the handles or even adjustable weights be of value?



Let's make 2 models. One a 4" - 4.25" blade and one with a 3" - 3.25" blade. Would blade thickness be better as a 4mm thickness for the longer blade and a 3mm thickness for the smaller version?



If "grip" is a real issue, what can be done to enhance "Grip" in the right places? Is the use kraton not a good idea?



I notice that all of the current balis have straight handles. Are bumps and dips not good?"



Post your comments here, or if you want to jump in on the original thread on Bladeforum's Bali Forum, cut and paste this url:



http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum47/HTML/001841.html

I just posted my thoughts on the General info thread but to some up here I prefer the design put forth by Mike Janich there.It is a unique and useful idea for a balisong knife.Please make it Spyderco so I can buy one and finally own a quality balisong!

Well, I'll try to respond to all that, but not necissarily in order.

I think you need to first state your purpose. Do you want a bali as a tool in the general cutting sence, or as a tool in the MBC sence? I think your looking at diffrent approaches based on each.

Bali handles are somewhat straight due to a)ease of construction, b) the mountain of "tricks" and manipulations based on that original design. If your looking for a super manilpulator, keep the handles pretty straight. If your looking for a defensive tool, you might want to start working in some ergo bends. I actually have a design I came up with that incorperates ergo's into the non-safe handle (the one the edge sits in while closed) while keeping the safe handle relativly smooth for manipulation. When opened, the ergo grip is there.

latches are an interesting thing, some love em, some hate em. I think that they are currently the best thing going for keeping a bali closed in your pocket and locked open when switching grips or hands. I think things like magnets can work to keep it open or cosed, but loose some of the perscsion in maipluation, again, MBC type concern, which do you value more.

Inserts can make the knife look great or crappy, depending on how well they are done. They have to be secure so as to handle steady "abuse" other knifes don't ever see. I think that g-10 scales can be done, and done well. I also think straight metal has its benifits as far as durability. BM's 42 is straight ti, but the drilled holes offer great grip. You also have a space between the handleswhen open due to the tang pin that also allows for better grip.

Back to the latch for a min. The latch provides great indexing i the closed and opened positions. Grooves or ergo bends (like my design) also provides ergo's in the open position as well as closed. Its a balance though between to much info for the fingers to handle and to much ergo before it becomes cunbersome.

Weight is not really the issue so much as balance. I've flipped cheap, super light weight balis that were crap, but had great balance. I've flipped bali's built like tanks that had poor balance and wer incredably slow. Some people don't like the new 42 ti handles, but i think they provide for good speed with no loss. Part of this might be that they are slightly longer then their older, heavier steel counterparts, putting more heft at the farthest point from the pivot, providing for good swing.

Balance is also a concern with inserts. A light (say ti) handle with no latch and light g-10 inserts might not have the mass distributed well enough to get a good swing and flow, where as a heavier steel handle with the same inserts might, or a solid ti handle.

I don't think we should push for bali's that are too adjustable, ie blade swaps or handle weights, etc. They see a lot of work, and adding extra parts or screws is just asking for something to work loose or break. Offering diffrent sizes or styles means more options. Don't make them into one knife, because the pay off is just to low. It makes things expensive, and harder to maintain. I think the secret is to make it right the first time, both in design, balance and intended use. That saves the need of adding gimicks like adjustable weight, etc. Bali's are more complicated then they look, but are definatly pure cutlery art when pulled of correctly. I know spyderco could do it, and do it well, but I think the first step is deciding whagt the intent and purpose of the knife is, be it MBC or not. On a purely political note, I'm not sure teaming the words "butterfly knife' with the word "martial" is a good thing for bali's. I'm personnaly pushing for people to see them as superior tools, not the cliche weapon of the 80's cut em up films. At the same time, i think matching bali-song to Spyderco could be great, considering Spyderco's strong tradition of creating strong reliable TOOLS with a very commen sence notion about them.

Sal et all, if any one want input, just ask.

Edited by - afee on 6/13/2001 4:39:01 PM