Spyderco Ignores Serious Safety Concerns
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pjschlaitzer
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Spyderco Ignores Serious Safety Concerns
I just had an unfortunate dealing with customer service rep Michael Hayes at Spyderco who stated repeatedly that my endura was not in unsafe condition even though the blade clearly moves in both axis when in the locked position. I know that this is a serious issue as the defect resulted in a minor injury. I just want to let anyone interested in purchasing a Spyderco product to know that they do not take safety very seriously.
This is the first time I´ve heard any negative comments on customer service here.
I´m interested in how long you have had that knife?
What have you used it for?
What happened when you received the minor injury?
What was the injury?
How much bladeplay do you experience in the different directions?
Thanks for sharing,
/Colinz
I´m interested in how long you have had that knife?
What have you used it for?
What happened when you received the minor injury?
What was the injury?
How much bladeplay do you experience in the different directions?
Thanks for sharing,
/Colinz
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sam the man..
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- Location: Kuala Lumpur Malaysia
pjschlaitzer welcome to the forum.
One thing that Spyderco DOES feel strongly about is product safety. I think the majority of Spyderco owners will agree with me.
I believe Mike Hayes has dealt with LITERALLY thousands of customer service issues. You don't mention if you had sent your Endura in to be looked at or not.
Were you aware of the "clearly observable" play before using it?
John
"I'll have the Harpy, please, and a straight, serrated Spyderco with a four-inch blade...""Anything else?""Yes. I'd like a Spyderco Civilian..."
One thing that Spyderco DOES feel strongly about is product safety. I think the majority of Spyderco owners will agree with me.
I believe Mike Hayes has dealt with LITERALLY thousands of customer service issues. You don't mention if you had sent your Endura in to be looked at or not.
Were you aware of the "clearly observable" play before using it?
John
"I'll have the Harpy, please, and a straight, serrated Spyderco with a four-inch blade...""Anything else?""Yes. I'd like a Spyderco Civilian..."
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Frank Black
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- Location: WA USA
Hey, pj, hope you've healed up.
Now I certainly don't wish to offend or patronize, but as Mr. Row has alluded, safety begins in the home. I personally treat every firearm I handle as if loaded (the gun, not me<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>), and every knife as if it were a slip-joint. If it can fold it will eventually fold if used hard enough long enough. I've seen handles come off of fixed-blades as well (some of us are just hard on equipment)... yikes! So I never use my knife for anything but cutting, and in return it always cuts for me and not into me.
That said, it sounds as if you've gotten lots of hard use out of your Endura. If Mike has inspected it and says it's safe for it's intended use, you can go ahead and use it as intended. If you still don't trust it, retire it to the kitchen or tackle-box, accept that you've beaten the knife, and reward yourself with something stouter.
Lastly, while no warranty will ever cover mis-, ab-, or over-use, nor unlimited milage no matter what you buy, you might be amazed at the agreeablism you'll encounter in response to a little cordiality and politeness, as opposed to a righteous, accusatory stance... hard to pull off when you're POed, but crucial. That's just business.
Hope this helps.
Now I certainly don't wish to offend or patronize, but as Mr. Row has alluded, safety begins in the home. I personally treat every firearm I handle as if loaded (the gun, not me<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>), and every knife as if it were a slip-joint. If it can fold it will eventually fold if used hard enough long enough. I've seen handles come off of fixed-blades as well (some of us are just hard on equipment)... yikes! So I never use my knife for anything but cutting, and in return it always cuts for me and not into me.
That said, it sounds as if you've gotten lots of hard use out of your Endura. If Mike has inspected it and says it's safe for it's intended use, you can go ahead and use it as intended. If you still don't trust it, retire it to the kitchen or tackle-box, accept that you've beaten the knife, and reward yourself with something stouter.
Lastly, while no warranty will ever cover mis-, ab-, or over-use, nor unlimited milage no matter what you buy, you might be amazed at the agreeablism you'll encounter in response to a little cordiality and politeness, as opposed to a righteous, accusatory stance... hard to pull off when you're POed, but crucial. That's just business.
Hope this helps.
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pjschlaitzer
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After realizing that blade play had become dangerous I immediately sent it in for repair. However, as previously mentioned Mike Hayes refused to repair it continually stating that it was not unsafe. I was quite shocked at his response and was even more suprised when he called me back days later to continue debating the issue of safety with me even after I had specifically requested that he never contact me again. As a firearm owner and spyderco knife owner for over nine years I am well versed in knife safety. However, at the time I felt I couldn't part with my knife as I use it hundreds of times every day. In no way do I blame Spyderco for my slight injury; I simply wish to have the knife repaired under warranty. Not a big issue and any other company would have taken care of it no questions asked. I never stated that I wanted a free knife from them and I was cordial at all times. After repeatedly contacting them to resolve this issue, and repeatedly being told it was not unsafe, I was forced to file a complaint with the Denver Better Business Bureau. Take a minute and look it up and you can read my complaint. As a side note you can easily tell who the spyderco employees are when they respond in the forum. Just a thought.
Hi Pj. Welcome to the Spyderco forum. Sorry for your dilemma, first I've heard of it. We generally receive very many compliments on Mike and Keith in Warrantee & repair. Very few complaints. Having not seen the knife, I cannot comment on the piece, although Mike has worked with thousands of knives and does have some knowledge.
I can comment on the "concern for safety" issue and state that you are wrong.
At Spyderco a sample of each run or shipment is tested in many ways. I know of no other kife company in the world that has invested the time and cost to build our own breaking machine with which to test lock strength and reliability to meet a predetemined set of standards. This is just one example of our concern for safety.
I'm sorry for your bad experience with our company. Perhaps in the future, we will have an opporunity to "win you back".
sal
Edited by - sal on 5/31/2001 9:19:47 AM
I can comment on the "concern for safety" issue and state that you are wrong.
At Spyderco a sample of each run or shipment is tested in many ways. I know of no other kife company in the world that has invested the time and cost to build our own breaking machine with which to test lock strength and reliability to meet a predetemined set of standards. This is just one example of our concern for safety.
I'm sorry for your bad experience with our company. Perhaps in the future, we will have an opporunity to "win you back".
sal
Edited by - sal on 5/31/2001 9:19:47 AM
Why is it in virtually every such complaint/post, that I get such a strong sense that not all available information has been provided?
Why would someone who is trying to get a knife repaired direct the supervisor of repair and warranty work to never communicate with the complainant again?
Why was the very direct question of how the injury was brought about not answered at all, but dismissed by saying that it was in no way Spydero's responsibility, after beginning the thread with the statement that the insufficiencies of the blade/lock caused the injury?
What is the level of motion/play both up/down and sideways? Is it less than 1 mm, or over 5 mm?
How old is this knife that has been used "hundreds of times every day?" How long has it been used so extensively? Is this the knife owned for 9 years? To me, a bit of wear after hundreds of thousands of uses would seem reasonable.
Hyperbole has its uses, but how realistic is it to go from one disputed notion of the safety of a used knife to a complete condemnation of an entire company's safety concerns.
Hey Pj. How about giving us some facts?
Stare
Why would someone who is trying to get a knife repaired direct the supervisor of repair and warranty work to never communicate with the complainant again?
Why was the very direct question of how the injury was brought about not answered at all, but dismissed by saying that it was in no way Spydero's responsibility, after beginning the thread with the statement that the insufficiencies of the blade/lock caused the injury?
What is the level of motion/play both up/down and sideways? Is it less than 1 mm, or over 5 mm?
How old is this knife that has been used "hundreds of times every day?" How long has it been used so extensively? Is this the knife owned for 9 years? To me, a bit of wear after hundreds of thousands of uses would seem reasonable.
Hyperbole has its uses, but how realistic is it to go from one disputed notion of the safety of a used knife to a complete condemnation of an entire company's safety concerns.
Hey Pj. How about giving us some facts?
Stare
Another question I might ask is if this knife had been looked at and or repaired on more than this one occasion? Which, IF that were the case, may have led to a conclusion of either abuse or normal wear & tear.
Had it been sent in for a broken tip, say, or to replace a clip? Or both?
I also did check the BBB site for Denver, Colorado and Spyderco's rating. Although I wasn't able to access the actual complaint, the BBB did state:
"BBB Customer Experience Record
Based on BBB files, this company has a satisfactory record with the Bureau. Any complaints processed by the Bureau in its three-year reporting period have been resolved. The number and type of complaints are not unusual for a company in this industry.
To have a "Satisfactory Record" with the Bureau, a company must be in business for at least 12 months, properly and promptly address matters referred to it by the Bureau, and be free from an unusual volume or pattern of complaints and law enforcement action involving its marketplace conduct. In addition, the
Bureau must have a clear understanding of the company's business and no concerns about its industry. "
Satisfactory is the HIGHEST rating the BBB issues a business.
John Row
Edited by - John Row on 5/31/2001 7:18:24 PM
Edited by - John Row on 5/31/2001 7:19:57 PM
Had it been sent in for a broken tip, say, or to replace a clip? Or both?
I also did check the BBB site for Denver, Colorado and Spyderco's rating. Although I wasn't able to access the actual complaint, the BBB did state:
"BBB Customer Experience Record
Based on BBB files, this company has a satisfactory record with the Bureau. Any complaints processed by the Bureau in its three-year reporting period have been resolved. The number and type of complaints are not unusual for a company in this industry.
To have a "Satisfactory Record" with the Bureau, a company must be in business for at least 12 months, properly and promptly address matters referred to it by the Bureau, and be free from an unusual volume or pattern of complaints and law enforcement action involving its marketplace conduct. In addition, the
Bureau must have a clear understanding of the company's business and no concerns about its industry. "
Satisfactory is the HIGHEST rating the BBB issues a business.
John Row
Edited by - John Row on 5/31/2001 7:18:24 PM
Edited by - John Row on 5/31/2001 7:19:57 PM
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pjschlaitzer
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Facts you ask for and facts you shall get.
Knife is approximately 3.5 years old; recently began exhibiting problem of blade play; less than 2 months. Blade moves >3mm in y axis, 1-2mm in x axis.
The exact incident resulting in the minor injury were described in detail to the customer service representative. To say that is not so is false. I dismiss the injury because I take responsibility for it. It's part of using a knife on a daily basis. I have never condemned Spyderco as a whole and have been a loyal supporter for over 9 years recommending them to all whom I meet. The play in the knife is not going to result in death or serious injury; that was never my point and I made that quite clear; my concern was that any blade play is dangerous and I was shocked to find that Mike and the other representatives would so carelessly say that it in no way was dangerous. It must also be noted that I never said anything about the lock failing and yet the company replies continually insinuate that I was referring to the locking mechanism. This is not so. I am so amazed that this minor item has turned into a tremendous ordeal. I cannot believe that Spyderco would refuse to take care of a customer. My first contact with Mike resulted in a fruitless argument over blade safety. Since he was so adamant about being right I made it clear that I did not wish to speak with him again. Yet, only a couple of days later he called me at home and tried to continue the same argument. Why would you do this? He made it clear to me that he was not going to help me and that his "supervisors" definitavely agreed with him. If so why would he call me back and argue with me. That is not customer service. The complaint with the better business bureau takes 3 days to process so it will not be public until tomorrow. You ask me to provide the facts but you withhold information of your own. I have been completely honest and forthecoming; you have not. I have not asked for any money, products all I wanted was to have my knife repaired; paying for the repair was not even a problem. I love my spyderco and it is deeply upsetting that such a minor issue has resulted in a tremendous waste of resources and time.
Knife is approximately 3.5 years old; recently began exhibiting problem of blade play; less than 2 months. Blade moves >3mm in y axis, 1-2mm in x axis.
The exact incident resulting in the minor injury were described in detail to the customer service representative. To say that is not so is false. I dismiss the injury because I take responsibility for it. It's part of using a knife on a daily basis. I have never condemned Spyderco as a whole and have been a loyal supporter for over 9 years recommending them to all whom I meet. The play in the knife is not going to result in death or serious injury; that was never my point and I made that quite clear; my concern was that any blade play is dangerous and I was shocked to find that Mike and the other representatives would so carelessly say that it in no way was dangerous. It must also be noted that I never said anything about the lock failing and yet the company replies continually insinuate that I was referring to the locking mechanism. This is not so. I am so amazed that this minor item has turned into a tremendous ordeal. I cannot believe that Spyderco would refuse to take care of a customer. My first contact with Mike resulted in a fruitless argument over blade safety. Since he was so adamant about being right I made it clear that I did not wish to speak with him again. Yet, only a couple of days later he called me at home and tried to continue the same argument. Why would you do this? He made it clear to me that he was not going to help me and that his "supervisors" definitavely agreed with him. If so why would he call me back and argue with me. That is not customer service. The complaint with the better business bureau takes 3 days to process so it will not be public until tomorrow. You ask me to provide the facts but you withhold information of your own. I have been completely honest and forthecoming; you have not. I have not asked for any money, products all I wanted was to have my knife repaired; paying for the repair was not even a problem. I love my spyderco and it is deeply upsetting that such a minor issue has resulted in a tremendous waste of resources and time.
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pjschlaitzer
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Fair is fair;
I just re-read my initial reply and must make a correction. I retract my statement that states that spyderco does not take safety seriously. I should have said that Spyderco is neglecting a safety issue.
It must be made public that I never asked for a free knife. I simply wanted to have my knife returned to original condition regardless of cost to myself. Had the customer service reps told me that my knife was beyond repair and that I would have to purchase a new one I wouldn't be posting comments. I would have happily bought a new one; end of story. The point I am trying to make, even though Spyderco employees, with a few exceptions, continually equivocate, is that Micheal Hayes never commented at all regarding my knife being past its prime. He simply continually argued about how blade movement was in no way a safety issue. Was the lock failing; no!. I have never said that. The blade moved in both axis; plain and simple. I have regretted ever sending my knife in for repair; it has been a giant hassle and tremendous waste of resources. Normally I would have just tossed the old knife and bought a competing brand. In this case however, I hate not having my endura at my side. I've opened hundreds of boxes, cut through hoses of all sizes, cleaned fish, carved figurines, stared down cougars and wild dogs, and the endura never blinked and neither did I because it always delivered exceptional performance. My problem is how can I continue to carry my endura when I've had such a bad experience with the company? What would you do?
I just re-read my initial reply and must make a correction. I retract my statement that states that spyderco does not take safety seriously. I should have said that Spyderco is neglecting a safety issue.
It must be made public that I never asked for a free knife. I simply wanted to have my knife returned to original condition regardless of cost to myself. Had the customer service reps told me that my knife was beyond repair and that I would have to purchase a new one I wouldn't be posting comments. I would have happily bought a new one; end of story. The point I am trying to make, even though Spyderco employees, with a few exceptions, continually equivocate, is that Micheal Hayes never commented at all regarding my knife being past its prime. He simply continually argued about how blade movement was in no way a safety issue. Was the lock failing; no!. I have never said that. The blade moved in both axis; plain and simple. I have regretted ever sending my knife in for repair; it has been a giant hassle and tremendous waste of resources. Normally I would have just tossed the old knife and bought a competing brand. In this case however, I hate not having my endura at my side. I've opened hundreds of boxes, cut through hoses of all sizes, cleaned fish, carved figurines, stared down cougars and wild dogs, and the endura never blinked and neither did I because it always delivered exceptional performance. My problem is how can I continue to carry my endura when I've had such a bad experience with the company? What would you do?
Here is a article about lockbacks and blade play
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002597.html
I have dealt with Mike a few times. He has always been professional.
Zach
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002597.html
I have dealt with Mike a few times. He has always been professional.
Zach
What would I do ?
What I did, was carry on !
- I expained to the folks in a note that I did not use the knife and received it damaged, and although having my new-unused knife repaired upset me, I carry it daily, in cycle with my Calypso Jr.
- In my case my knife is now a bit shorter, but so what ! It is finally in my pocket.
- If my case had been my older Endura with a loose blade, I would have, and will if the situation arises, just replace it.
After working in a Customer Satisfaction organization, I realize that it is difficult to please everyone, and if I can't get my point across, I go back into my corner.
Would I go to the BBB ? NO.
But then again, this is only MHO.
What I did, was carry on !
- I expained to the folks in a note that I did not use the knife and received it damaged, and although having my new-unused knife repaired upset me, I carry it daily, in cycle with my Calypso Jr.
- In my case my knife is now a bit shorter, but so what ! It is finally in my pocket.
- If my case had been my older Endura with a loose blade, I would have, and will if the situation arises, just replace it.
After working in a Customer Satisfaction organization, I realize that it is difficult to please everyone, and if I can't get my point across, I go back into my corner.
Would I go to the BBB ? NO.
But then again, this is only MHO.
Yeah. Just to add another endorsement...
I sent in a knife a couple of years ago for side-to-side blade play. Spyderco fixed it, and they fixed another very minor problem with the knife that I didn't even bother to mention. Plus, they sharpened the knife, even though it was only slightly dull. No charge for any of this and I didn't even have a receipt.
I sent in a knife a couple of years ago for side-to-side blade play. Spyderco fixed it, and they fixed another very minor problem with the knife that I didn't even bother to mention. Plus, they sharpened the knife, even though it was only slightly dull. No charge for any of this and I didn't even have a receipt.