To all MBC forum readers:
In an effort to make the MBC program and instructional curriculum meet your needs to the best of our ability, I would like to solicit your input. Specifically, I would welcome your comments regarding the following:
1) What types of training would you like to see offered?
2) How long a program would you like to see?(1-day? 2-days?)
3) What topics would you like to see covered in the instruction?
4) How many levels of instruction would you like to see?
5) What other MBC-style products would you like to see offered (wrist/arm guards, special-purpose kydex sheaths, books, videos, etc.)?
6) How far would you be willing to travel to attend a course?
7) How much would you be willing to pay for training? (please provide amounts for 1-day, 2-day, and 3-day programs)
8)What other suggestions do you have concerning the program, MBC products, and related topics?
I am committed to making MBC a success and value your comments and input. Thank you in advance for sharing your insights.
Michael Janich
Head Instructor, Spyderco MBC Program
MBC Program Input Wanted
-
Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 3320
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
1.Training for non-LEO reactive defense senarios. Close range counter-physical assualts, with emphasis on folder blade drawing-to-strike techniques.
2. 1 day per module if road trip ; 2 day if at Sypderco Factory Outlet
3. Ethical use of force, the force continuum, improvised shields, adaptive knife use for physically impaired persons. Solo training drills. How to solo train with drones.
4. Two core courses, special adaptive sub-courses for less physically able-bodied people. ie. elderly, disabled, overwieght.
5. Kydex sheaths for women's attire, Training safety equipment. Clothing adapted as low-profile arm shields.
6. Two hundred miles.
7. $150 dollars per day, each day. I base this on the average cost of a top drawer MBC folder. Two knifes, or two days of training? This works for my budget.
8. A Find-a-training-partner resource. A web based registry were MBC course attendees can find similar trained folk. The MBC curriculum could serve as foundation so students can practice near home.
Thank-you for asking Mr.Janich.
Seth
2. 1 day per module if road trip ; 2 day if at Sypderco Factory Outlet
3. Ethical use of force, the force continuum, improvised shields, adaptive knife use for physically impaired persons. Solo training drills. How to solo train with drones.
4. Two core courses, special adaptive sub-courses for less physically able-bodied people. ie. elderly, disabled, overwieght.
5. Kydex sheaths for women's attire, Training safety equipment. Clothing adapted as low-profile arm shields.
6. Two hundred miles.
7. $150 dollars per day, each day. I base this on the average cost of a top drawer MBC folder. Two knifes, or two days of training? This works for my budget.
8. A Find-a-training-partner resource. A web based registry were MBC course attendees can find similar trained folk. The MBC curriculum could serve as foundation so students can practice near home.
Thank-you for asking Mr.Janich.
Seth
Mr. Janich, the one thing that seems to be lacking in the knife training that I have had is drawing the knife from the pocket and opening it after an attack or threat with a weapon has started. When I have asked this question at seminars (in private of course)I have been told that I should never be taken by suprise or that area of study isn't going to covered. It seems that all the instructors want people to do at seminars is knife spar and work from largo, while knife sparring and largo are fun if I can't fend off a bad guy who has a weapon and draw and open my own then all the rest is useless. Anyway, enough rambling, I'll see you in August.
-
Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 3320
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
Dear Seth and Jut:
Thank you both very much for your well-reasoned replies. Rest assured that I will do my best to incorporate your comments and ideas into the MBC decision-making process.
Jut, I am in complete agreement with your comments regarding deployment skills and specifically designed Level 4 of the current curriculum to address that problem. I regard it as the process of "putting it all together" - integrating initial empty-hand/improvised weapon responses with draw-strike-open or draw-open-strike skills. Although it may seem a long time to wait to learn such critical skills, based on the classes I've taught thus far, it's working well. The initial classes impart defensive skills and tactics and introduce the basic skills of drawing and opening the knife. When the students leave the initial classes, they are naturally inclined to work on their drawing and opening skills. After this "homework" they come back to the advanced classes with well-tuned deployment skills that we then apply tactically.
I make it a habit to give a "preview" of the content of upcoming classes each time I teach. I'll make sure to feature the tactical deployment skills when I meet you in August.
Thank you both again for your input. Anybody else????
mike j
Thank you both very much for your well-reasoned replies. Rest assured that I will do my best to incorporate your comments and ideas into the MBC decision-making process.
Jut, I am in complete agreement with your comments regarding deployment skills and specifically designed Level 4 of the current curriculum to address that problem. I regard it as the process of "putting it all together" - integrating initial empty-hand/improvised weapon responses with draw-strike-open or draw-open-strike skills. Although it may seem a long time to wait to learn such critical skills, based on the classes I've taught thus far, it's working well. The initial classes impart defensive skills and tactics and introduce the basic skills of drawing and opening the knife. When the students leave the initial classes, they are naturally inclined to work on their drawing and opening skills. After this "homework" they come back to the advanced classes with well-tuned deployment skills that we then apply tactically.
I make it a habit to give a "preview" of the content of upcoming classes each time I teach. I'll make sure to feature the tactical deployment skills when I meet you in August.
Thank you both again for your input. Anybody else????
mike j
Mike I am new to the whole MBC scene. Where would you recommend I start. I would love to travel to Col to take a class but would like to learn a thing or two so as not to make myself look bad. I think the curiculum you have set up seems very fair. From other posts I have read. I also must comment that the prices seem more than reasonable. Can you point me to a good source to start with. I look forward to hopefully participating in a class with a trainer of your magnitude. Keep up the good word.
What do you think is a good starter knife ?
How about a drone endura and endura as a carry knife??? Serrated or plain edge? Thanks again Mike....ADAM
What do you think is a good starter knife ?
How about a drone endura and endura as a carry knife??? Serrated or plain edge? Thanks again Mike....ADAM
-
Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 3320
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
Dear Adam:
Thanks for your post. You bring up a very good point - wanting to train before attending a course so you "won't look bad." In my experience, this approach often backfires because you start practicing without the benefit of hands-on instruction and develop bad habits. When you finally do train, you spend more time undoing your habits than learning new stuff.
The MBC Level 1 class is truly designed to take someone with absolutely no training and develop a foundation of usable skills. When done back-to-back with Level 2, you get a very solid introduction to defensive knife use that would then allow you to practice on your own or with a like-minded partner to really polish your skills.
With all that said, if you would like to get an idea of what Level 1 and 2 are all about, probably the closest parallel is my video "Fighting Folders" from Paladin Press. Although the MBC versions of the partner training drills differ slightly to make them easier to learn, that video covers most of the material of Levels 1-2 and provides very thorough instruction in folding knife carry and deployment. (End of shameless plug.)
As for selecting a defensive carry knife, the Delica and Endura are excellent choices both because of the quality of the knives and because you can get matching trainers. My advice is to visit a knife store that sells both and give them each a thorough "test drive" (gripping, opening, carry in the pocket, drawing, etc.). Then take a trip to your public library and review the "revised statutes" (state laws) for your state regarding edged weapons. If you live in or travel frequently to a large municipality, visit their library and do the same for applicable muncicpal laws. Once you have a solid understanding of the restrictions on blade length and any other prohibited characteristics, make your final decision accordingly.
My personal preference (and one of my daily carry knives) is a plain-edged Delica. I can take it everywhere and it doesn't raise any eyebrows - even at airport security. At the same time, when properly maintained it will cut as well as any nigh-priced tactical folder in my collection.
In the interest of full disclosure, please note that the locks on the Delica and Endura not "MBC rated" (capable of withstanding 200 pounds of pressure per inch of blade length). From a practical and empirical standpoint, this is not a great concern to me. My personal lock tests have shown that the Delica and Endura easily compare with the best "tactical" folders on the market and are in fact much better than most. My only caution is that, if you engage in any ballistic cutting exercises with your knife, frequently test the lock to ensure that it hasn't been compromised. To do this, take a pinch grip on the handle (no fingers in the way of the handle slot) and rap the back of the blade firmly on the edge of a workbench. If the lock holds tight, continue to carry the knife. If it closes, retire it immediately.
I have "worn out" the locks of quite a few knives (of various brands) through ballistic cutting practice on training dummies and targets. This doesn't mean that the knives were bad - I just stressed them beyond their normal standards of performance. The good thing was that I learned that the locks were compromised during training, not in the middle of a fight.
I hope this information helps and look forward to seeing you at an MBC class in the near future.
mike j
Thanks for your post. You bring up a very good point - wanting to train before attending a course so you "won't look bad." In my experience, this approach often backfires because you start practicing without the benefit of hands-on instruction and develop bad habits. When you finally do train, you spend more time undoing your habits than learning new stuff.
The MBC Level 1 class is truly designed to take someone with absolutely no training and develop a foundation of usable skills. When done back-to-back with Level 2, you get a very solid introduction to defensive knife use that would then allow you to practice on your own or with a like-minded partner to really polish your skills.
With all that said, if you would like to get an idea of what Level 1 and 2 are all about, probably the closest parallel is my video "Fighting Folders" from Paladin Press. Although the MBC versions of the partner training drills differ slightly to make them easier to learn, that video covers most of the material of Levels 1-2 and provides very thorough instruction in folding knife carry and deployment. (End of shameless plug.)
As for selecting a defensive carry knife, the Delica and Endura are excellent choices both because of the quality of the knives and because you can get matching trainers. My advice is to visit a knife store that sells both and give them each a thorough "test drive" (gripping, opening, carry in the pocket, drawing, etc.). Then take a trip to your public library and review the "revised statutes" (state laws) for your state regarding edged weapons. If you live in or travel frequently to a large municipality, visit their library and do the same for applicable muncicpal laws. Once you have a solid understanding of the restrictions on blade length and any other prohibited characteristics, make your final decision accordingly.
My personal preference (and one of my daily carry knives) is a plain-edged Delica. I can take it everywhere and it doesn't raise any eyebrows - even at airport security. At the same time, when properly maintained it will cut as well as any nigh-priced tactical folder in my collection.
In the interest of full disclosure, please note that the locks on the Delica and Endura not "MBC rated" (capable of withstanding 200 pounds of pressure per inch of blade length). From a practical and empirical standpoint, this is not a great concern to me. My personal lock tests have shown that the Delica and Endura easily compare with the best "tactical" folders on the market and are in fact much better than most. My only caution is that, if you engage in any ballistic cutting exercises with your knife, frequently test the lock to ensure that it hasn't been compromised. To do this, take a pinch grip on the handle (no fingers in the way of the handle slot) and rap the back of the blade firmly on the edge of a workbench. If the lock holds tight, continue to carry the knife. If it closes, retire it immediately.
I have "worn out" the locks of quite a few knives (of various brands) through ballistic cutting practice on training dummies and targets. This doesn't mean that the knives were bad - I just stressed them beyond their normal standards of performance. The good thing was that I learned that the locks were compromised during training, not in the middle of a fight.
I hope this information helps and look forward to seeing you at an MBC class in the near future.
mike j
1) What types of training would you like to see offered?
I started training in FMA, Modern Arnis to be exact, to find out how such a stylist would be attacking me and to
develope a defense. Within a year I had what I thought to be an answer and another 6 months later I got my chane to
have three passes with an Arnis professional. I won 2 out of the three passes because his "art" made him predictable.
I also did the same thing with aikido.
What I would like to see is an extension of such research covering the current top teachers' attack styles, let's say:
"What can you expect if you face an opponent trained by Hock, Bram, Keating, Vunak, Inosanto, Gaje, or any other
bmoc? How will they act / react differently? What are the signatures to look for (besides a honkin' great bowie!)?"
2) How long a program would you like to see? (1-day? 2-days?)
I get pretty tired after 4-5 days at a karate seminar but I'm still learning - I like more than two days better if I have to
travel to get to it but cost is a big concern with me, and longer is always more expensive.
3) What topics would you like to see covered in the instruction?
I once spent 2 days rolling around a hard baked soccer field in 100° sunshine practicing "sentry removal" with Joo
Bang's boys...let's say that I <b>DON'T</b> want to do that again!
One topic that is high interest to me and usually gets a whole lot of attention in most blade forums when it comes up
is: "Can you and how do you take out a dog with a small blade - or any blade?" There are no blade nuts cross training
with dogs or else they don't want to give out any secrets!
4) How many levels of instruction would you like to see?
Hey, anything that will save my life when accosted by Jake, the nasty guy in Once Were Warriors...as long as it's
practical, pile it on!
5) What other MBC-style products would you like to see offered (wrist/arm guards, special-purpose kydex sheaths,
books, videos, etc.)? All of 'em!
6) How far would you be willing to travel to attend a course?
So far I've gone no farther than one day's drive - it would have to be pretty special to get me farther as the costs mount
up. Managing the logistics of not being at work has been the major block to my travel.
This summer we have put together a family / business trip to Denver and Las Vegas with stops scheduled at RMCAT,
the Spyderco factory and Animal's place but so far the only seminars we can find is RMCAT's. This trip has been in
the works for 4-5 years and we just got it off the ground this year!
7) How much would you be willing to pay for training? (please provide amounts for 1-day, 2-day, and 3-day
programs)
When I give a seminar I usually charge in the $10 - $12 per hour range - 6 hours is $60 etc. I am comfy with this, it's
not too high for most folks and as a teacher if I get $10 x 15 folks = $150 per hour, I'm happy! If I thought that
someone was charging $50 an hour per person just for his name, I would pass...at least I have so far.
8) What other suggestions do you have concerning the program, MBC products, and related topics?
I would love to get hands on sharpening training with the various stones and other sharpeners availabe, even those not
made by spyderco. Some steel is very hard and some edges are hard to manage - I'm thinking of the Cold Steel Tanto.
Aside from that, I'll leave this open for later...
<a href=" http://raisingcanes.net">The Fighting Old Man</a>
I started training in FMA, Modern Arnis to be exact, to find out how such a stylist would be attacking me and to
develope a defense. Within a year I had what I thought to be an answer and another 6 months later I got my chane to
have three passes with an Arnis professional. I won 2 out of the three passes because his "art" made him predictable.
I also did the same thing with aikido.
What I would like to see is an extension of such research covering the current top teachers' attack styles, let's say:
"What can you expect if you face an opponent trained by Hock, Bram, Keating, Vunak, Inosanto, Gaje, or any other
bmoc? How will they act / react differently? What are the signatures to look for (besides a honkin' great bowie!)?"
2) How long a program would you like to see? (1-day? 2-days?)
I get pretty tired after 4-5 days at a karate seminar but I'm still learning - I like more than two days better if I have to
travel to get to it but cost is a big concern with me, and longer is always more expensive.
3) What topics would you like to see covered in the instruction?
I once spent 2 days rolling around a hard baked soccer field in 100° sunshine practicing "sentry removal" with Joo
Bang's boys...let's say that I <b>DON'T</b> want to do that again!
One topic that is high interest to me and usually gets a whole lot of attention in most blade forums when it comes up
is: "Can you and how do you take out a dog with a small blade - or any blade?" There are no blade nuts cross training
with dogs or else they don't want to give out any secrets!
4) How many levels of instruction would you like to see?
Hey, anything that will save my life when accosted by Jake, the nasty guy in Once Were Warriors...as long as it's
practical, pile it on!
5) What other MBC-style products would you like to see offered (wrist/arm guards, special-purpose kydex sheaths,
books, videos, etc.)? All of 'em!
6) How far would you be willing to travel to attend a course?
So far I've gone no farther than one day's drive - it would have to be pretty special to get me farther as the costs mount
up. Managing the logistics of not being at work has been the major block to my travel.
This summer we have put together a family / business trip to Denver and Las Vegas with stops scheduled at RMCAT,
the Spyderco factory and Animal's place but so far the only seminars we can find is RMCAT's. This trip has been in
the works for 4-5 years and we just got it off the ground this year!
7) How much would you be willing to pay for training? (please provide amounts for 1-day, 2-day, and 3-day
programs)
When I give a seminar I usually charge in the $10 - $12 per hour range - 6 hours is $60 etc. I am comfy with this, it's
not too high for most folks and as a teacher if I get $10 x 15 folks = $150 per hour, I'm happy! If I thought that
someone was charging $50 an hour per person just for his name, I would pass...at least I have so far.
8) What other suggestions do you have concerning the program, MBC products, and related topics?
I would love to get hands on sharpening training with the various stones and other sharpeners availabe, even those not
made by spyderco. Some steel is very hard and some edges are hard to manage - I'm thinking of the Cold Steel Tanto.
Aside from that, I'll leave this open for later...
<a href=" http://raisingcanes.net">The Fighting Old Man</a>
-
riverrodent
- Member
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Atlanta USA
Mr. Janich,
I have a more general question about the MBC program. Reading about the MBC program I saw that the emphasis is on non-lethal strikes. I teach martial arts and knife use and have studied with Hank in Conyers. I mention this because I know you have also worked with him. I have researched the legal ramifications of knife use in self defence and am curious about this. All I have read indicates that using a knife in self defence is the same as using a gun. You cannot use it unless you are in fear of death or grevious bodily harm. In this circumstance, you may legally put two in the center of mass and 1 in the head. There is no legal responsibility to shoot to wound. Why is there a trend to teach this in knife use? You cannot pull a knife on someone unless you could pull a gun. If you are facing someone with a better weapon or multiple opponents, you are already in trouble. Limiting your options seems self defeating. If all you have is a 3" folder, your opponent most likely has a better weapon.
I would be leary of taking a MBC course for this reason. If you go to court and the prosecutor asks if you have been trained in a knife system that emphasizes non leathal techniques why did you use a leathal technique?
By reducing your options you are reducing your chances of survival. I know it is fashionable to speak of the knife as a level of force less than a gun but court decisions are running totally the other way.
I have a more general question about the MBC program. Reading about the MBC program I saw that the emphasis is on non-lethal strikes. I teach martial arts and knife use and have studied with Hank in Conyers. I mention this because I know you have also worked with him. I have researched the legal ramifications of knife use in self defence and am curious about this. All I have read indicates that using a knife in self defence is the same as using a gun. You cannot use it unless you are in fear of death or grevious bodily harm. In this circumstance, you may legally put two in the center of mass and 1 in the head. There is no legal responsibility to shoot to wound. Why is there a trend to teach this in knife use? You cannot pull a knife on someone unless you could pull a gun. If you are facing someone with a better weapon or multiple opponents, you are already in trouble. Limiting your options seems self defeating. If all you have is a 3" folder, your opponent most likely has a better weapon.
I would be leary of taking a MBC course for this reason. If you go to court and the prosecutor asks if you have been trained in a knife system that emphasizes non leathal techniques why did you use a leathal technique?
By reducing your options you are reducing your chances of survival. I know it is fashionable to speak of the knife as a level of force less than a gun but court decisions are running totally the other way.
-
Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 3320
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
Dear Sochin:
Thanks for your detailed input. It sounds like you've got quite a bit of experience to draw from. I appreciate your sharing it with us.
As far as the FMA style research goes, I'm definitely with you and share the same interest. However, the MBC curriculum is designed more as a practical, straightforward distillation of the Filipino arts. As such, I don't see it addressing the stylistic issues anytime soon.
Your comments on price, travel time, and course content are very much appreciated and will certainly be incorporated into my decision-making process.
As far as rolling around on a hard soccer field, as a wide first sergeant of mine once said, "People suffer naturally. They don't need to practice it." That's why MBC uses mats, carpeted floors, and other trappings of civilization for most of its training.
On the dog issue I'm sure that the most knowledgable person on the subject would be Mr. Keating. He is a martial dog trainer and probably knows more about their strengths and weaknesses (especially with regard to knives) than anybody.
Again, thanks very much for your input. I hope we can cross paths sometime soon and discuss some of these issues in person.
Stay safe.
mike j
Thanks for your detailed input. It sounds like you've got quite a bit of experience to draw from. I appreciate your sharing it with us.
As far as the FMA style research goes, I'm definitely with you and share the same interest. However, the MBC curriculum is designed more as a practical, straightforward distillation of the Filipino arts. As such, I don't see it addressing the stylistic issues anytime soon.
Your comments on price, travel time, and course content are very much appreciated and will certainly be incorporated into my decision-making process.
As far as rolling around on a hard soccer field, as a wide first sergeant of mine once said, "People suffer naturally. They don't need to practice it." That's why MBC uses mats, carpeted floors, and other trappings of civilization for most of its training.
On the dog issue I'm sure that the most knowledgable person on the subject would be Mr. Keating. He is a martial dog trainer and probably knows more about their strengths and weaknesses (especially with regard to knives) than anybody.
Again, thanks very much for your input. I hope we can cross paths sometime soon and discuss some of these issues in person.
Stay safe.
mike j
<b>1) What types of training would you like to see offered? </b>
A no-nonsense training where you incapacitate a BG as fast as possible in different distances. Like for instance taking control of a grappling situation on the ground using pressure points with the ramp and cutting in the right places with the blade.
<b>2) How long a program would you like to see?(1-day? 2-days?) </b>
2-days is nice, a 5-day course would also be interesting.
<b>3) What topics would you like to see covered in the instruction? </b>
Where to push with the ramp and cut with the blade. The basics of using a blade standing and lying down (grappling). The legal stuff I can find out for myself. If you have to discuss the legal grounds, use the first hour every day for this.
<b>4) How many levels of instruction would you like to see? </b>
Maybe three, first cover the mindset and standing postures with basic cutting. Second step more in-close blade/rampwork. Third more advanced bladework and how to use the blade/ramp in grappling situations.
<b>5) What other MBC-style products would you like to see offered (wrist/arm guards, special-purpose kydex sheaths, books, videos, etc.)? </b>
More different kydex sheaths: IWB, neck, front-fast-draw (like the gunrigs in ISPC shooting), why not build in a kydex sheath like the Strider guys has in a low-ride holster (very fast backup draw and could work in a in-the-belt holster.) Could be a great offer to future Police sales.
A book would be nice. I live in Sweden and have a different VHS system, your tapes don´t work here (unless you buy that kind of recorder). Don´t forget clear pictures and use good quality paper on pages with pictures. Nice to have as a reference guide when you travel, or you want to show what MBC is about to someone new. It´s better to view anatomical scetches this way too.
Why not transfer the VHS to one (or maybe two) DVD´s. Hard to copy and easy to show moves in slow-motion. It would also be easier to sell internationally (region-free DVD´s are almost everywhere). I would buy the book AND the DVD´s if they complement each other.
<b>6) How far would you be willing to travel to attend a course? </b>
Within my own country, Sweden.
<b>7) How much would you be willing to pay for training? (please provide amounts for 1-day, 2-day, and 3-day programs) </b>
1-day: 0$ (how can you learn anything in one day?)
2-day: 250$ (including MBC golf shirt) 10hrs/day.
3-day: 350$ (incl. MBC golf shirt and a drone) 10hrs/day. This would be the optimal length of a program for me.
5-day: 400$ (incl. -as above-) 8hrs/day. Great to do during a vacation.
<b>8)What other suggestions do you have concerning the program, MBC products, and related topics? </b>
Come on over to Sweden. There are a couple of us that would be interested.
The golf shirt, please don´t make a big print on the back. I can´t wear it here without having to answer private questions to people. And if there is a big print on the back, well the BG knows you are dangerous and will make sure you are unconscious first and then take your wallet.
Nice that you asked.
/Colinz
EDIT: Q7, I was somewhat unclear
Edited by - Colinz on 5/30/2001 5:42:25 AM
A no-nonsense training where you incapacitate a BG as fast as possible in different distances. Like for instance taking control of a grappling situation on the ground using pressure points with the ramp and cutting in the right places with the blade.
<b>2) How long a program would you like to see?(1-day? 2-days?) </b>
2-days is nice, a 5-day course would also be interesting.
<b>3) What topics would you like to see covered in the instruction? </b>
Where to push with the ramp and cut with the blade. The basics of using a blade standing and lying down (grappling). The legal stuff I can find out for myself. If you have to discuss the legal grounds, use the first hour every day for this.
<b>4) How many levels of instruction would you like to see? </b>
Maybe three, first cover the mindset and standing postures with basic cutting. Second step more in-close blade/rampwork. Third more advanced bladework and how to use the blade/ramp in grappling situations.
<b>5) What other MBC-style products would you like to see offered (wrist/arm guards, special-purpose kydex sheaths, books, videos, etc.)? </b>
More different kydex sheaths: IWB, neck, front-fast-draw (like the gunrigs in ISPC shooting), why not build in a kydex sheath like the Strider guys has in a low-ride holster (very fast backup draw and could work in a in-the-belt holster.) Could be a great offer to future Police sales.
A book would be nice. I live in Sweden and have a different VHS system, your tapes don´t work here (unless you buy that kind of recorder). Don´t forget clear pictures and use good quality paper on pages with pictures. Nice to have as a reference guide when you travel, or you want to show what MBC is about to someone new. It´s better to view anatomical scetches this way too.
Why not transfer the VHS to one (or maybe two) DVD´s. Hard to copy and easy to show moves in slow-motion. It would also be easier to sell internationally (region-free DVD´s are almost everywhere). I would buy the book AND the DVD´s if they complement each other.
<b>6) How far would you be willing to travel to attend a course? </b>
Within my own country, Sweden.
<b>7) How much would you be willing to pay for training? (please provide amounts for 1-day, 2-day, and 3-day programs) </b>
1-day: 0$ (how can you learn anything in one day?)
2-day: 250$ (including MBC golf shirt) 10hrs/day.
3-day: 350$ (incl. MBC golf shirt and a drone) 10hrs/day. This would be the optimal length of a program for me.
5-day: 400$ (incl. -as above-) 8hrs/day. Great to do during a vacation.
<b>8)What other suggestions do you have concerning the program, MBC products, and related topics? </b>
Come on over to Sweden. There are a couple of us that would be interested.
The golf shirt, please don´t make a big print on the back. I can´t wear it here without having to answer private questions to people. And if there is a big print on the back, well the BG knows you are dangerous and will make sure you are unconscious first and then take your wallet.
Nice that you asked.
/Colinz
EDIT: Q7, I was somewhat unclear
Edited by - Colinz on 5/30/2001 5:42:25 AM
-
Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 3320
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
Dear Riverrodent:
Thank you for your comments and congratulations for training with Hank. He is a great guy and a wealth of knowledge.
There are actually several answers to your question concerning non-lethal application of the knife. First, I believe in the Filipino concept of "defanging the snake" - attacking the weapon-bearing limb. In a true self-defense situation, it's the quickest and easiest way of reducing or eliminating the real threat - the attacker's weapon.
If the initial defanging strike (usually to the wrist or forearm) doesn't work, our next target is the bicep and/or tricep of the weapon-bearing arm. Again, the goal is to eliminate the bad guy's ability to attack effectively with his weapon.
Another secondary target is the quadricep. The goal is to eliminate the attacker's ability to stand or at least severely hamper his mobility. If he's armed with a contact-distance weapon, but cannot close to contact distance with me, I'm safe and can make my escape without fear of him following me.
To some, using the knife with these non-lethal tactics seems ineffective. However, what you must really consider is the stopping power of the knife. Since the ultimate goal is not to injure or kill but to STOP the attack, we need to do it as efficiently as possible. As most prison guards, street cops, and trauma surgeons will tell you, a determined human can withstand multiple stab wounds to the torso and still keep going for several minutes. That's way too long when you're at arm's length and your attacker still has a weapon. However, when you take away the physical structure of an attacker (key muscles, tendons, etc.), it doesn't matter if he feels it or not. Those body parts WILL NOT WORK and he will not be able to effectively wield a weapon. (If you want proof of this, ask Hank about leg wounds in historical battles and duels, then settle in for some great storytelling.)
From a legal standpoint, the non-lethal application of the knife is critical because it allows you to tailor your response to the actual level of the threat. Since many forensic "experts" consider ANY cut to the hands a "defensive wound" and the person who delivered that cut to be the aggressor, I think it's important to go on record with a formal training program that recognizes this tactic as self-defense. Given the issues of civil liability and the different ethical and moral beliefs of the broad spectrum of MBC students, I think it's also a good idea to have a program that allows the incremental application of force rather than an immediate and exclusive application of lethal force.
However, the main reason that I emphasize non-lethal cuts to the limbs is that they are the quickest and surest way of STOPPING a determined attacker that's swinging a weapon at you at contact distance. I agree that many situations that justify the use of a knife also justify the application of lethal force. However, unless it's IMMEDIATE lethal force that produces an IMMEDIATE stop, it won't keep you safe from harm.
The MBC curriculum is designed to be legally defensible and morally and ethically acceptable to a broad range of people. However, it is above all designed to be an EFFECTIVE method of stopping a violent assault. If I didn't believe it was effective, I wouldn't teach it.
Thank you again for your excellent question.
mike j
Thank you for your comments and congratulations for training with Hank. He is a great guy and a wealth of knowledge.
There are actually several answers to your question concerning non-lethal application of the knife. First, I believe in the Filipino concept of "defanging the snake" - attacking the weapon-bearing limb. In a true self-defense situation, it's the quickest and easiest way of reducing or eliminating the real threat - the attacker's weapon.
If the initial defanging strike (usually to the wrist or forearm) doesn't work, our next target is the bicep and/or tricep of the weapon-bearing arm. Again, the goal is to eliminate the bad guy's ability to attack effectively with his weapon.
Another secondary target is the quadricep. The goal is to eliminate the attacker's ability to stand or at least severely hamper his mobility. If he's armed with a contact-distance weapon, but cannot close to contact distance with me, I'm safe and can make my escape without fear of him following me.
To some, using the knife with these non-lethal tactics seems ineffective. However, what you must really consider is the stopping power of the knife. Since the ultimate goal is not to injure or kill but to STOP the attack, we need to do it as efficiently as possible. As most prison guards, street cops, and trauma surgeons will tell you, a determined human can withstand multiple stab wounds to the torso and still keep going for several minutes. That's way too long when you're at arm's length and your attacker still has a weapon. However, when you take away the physical structure of an attacker (key muscles, tendons, etc.), it doesn't matter if he feels it or not. Those body parts WILL NOT WORK and he will not be able to effectively wield a weapon. (If you want proof of this, ask Hank about leg wounds in historical battles and duels, then settle in for some great storytelling.)
From a legal standpoint, the non-lethal application of the knife is critical because it allows you to tailor your response to the actual level of the threat. Since many forensic "experts" consider ANY cut to the hands a "defensive wound" and the person who delivered that cut to be the aggressor, I think it's important to go on record with a formal training program that recognizes this tactic as self-defense. Given the issues of civil liability and the different ethical and moral beliefs of the broad spectrum of MBC students, I think it's also a good idea to have a program that allows the incremental application of force rather than an immediate and exclusive application of lethal force.
However, the main reason that I emphasize non-lethal cuts to the limbs is that they are the quickest and surest way of STOPPING a determined attacker that's swinging a weapon at you at contact distance. I agree that many situations that justify the use of a knife also justify the application of lethal force. However, unless it's IMMEDIATE lethal force that produces an IMMEDIATE stop, it won't keep you safe from harm.
The MBC curriculum is designed to be legally defensible and morally and ethically acceptable to a broad range of people. However, it is above all designed to be an EFFECTIVE method of stopping a violent assault. If I didn't believe it was effective, I wouldn't teach it.
Thank you again for your excellent question.
mike j
-
Panzer Lied
- Member
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: USA
Mr. Janich,
Here's my $0.02's worth:
1) I think Seth has the right idea - reactive defense training for us non-LEOs.
2) 2 day modules.
3) I think the MBC curriculum that you posted earlier does the job.
4) ditto.
5) Yes to wrist guards, sheaths and books/videos that cover the MBC courses. How about some classy looking MBC polo shirts?
6) 200 miles.
7) $150/day.
8) Random ideas:
What about taking MBC on the road so that we all don't have to make a pilgrimage to Colorado to get the training? It would be a lot easier for me to work a trip to D.C., Chicago, etc... into my work schedule.
What's up with the MBC flyers? The one I saw in a dojo I was visiting looked like a bad copy of a bad fax. I don't know if that was an official flyer, direct from Spyderco, or what but professional looking marketing material should be part of MBC's image. As marketing geeks will tell you, the first impression a consumer gets about your product or service has a big impact on its success.
Panzer
Here's my $0.02's worth:
1) I think Seth has the right idea - reactive defense training for us non-LEOs.
2) 2 day modules.
3) I think the MBC curriculum that you posted earlier does the job.
4) ditto.
5) Yes to wrist guards, sheaths and books/videos that cover the MBC courses. How about some classy looking MBC polo shirts?
6) 200 miles.
7) $150/day.
8) Random ideas:
What about taking MBC on the road so that we all don't have to make a pilgrimage to Colorado to get the training? It would be a lot easier for me to work a trip to D.C., Chicago, etc... into my work schedule.
What's up with the MBC flyers? The one I saw in a dojo I was visiting looked like a bad copy of a bad fax. I don't know if that was an official flyer, direct from Spyderco, or what but professional looking marketing material should be part of MBC's image. As marketing geeks will tell you, the first impression a consumer gets about your product or service has a big impact on its success.
Panzer
-
Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 3320
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
Dear Colinz:
Thank you very much for your reply. It's especially interesting to get input from someone overseas. We often focus so heavily on the U.S. domestic scene that we forget to consider the circumstances of our friends abroad.
A few comments on your input...
The current MBC curriculum does cover defenses at all ranges. I emphasize the idea of working at long range to disable and escape, but fully realize that this is often not possible. As the student progresses, we introduce close-range tactics and ultimately move into body-contact range and grappling.
Based on your references to "ramp," I'm assuming you're a Gunting user. The general MBC classes are designed to work with any knife, but for Gunting folks, I do include the extra "spice" that design offers in my instruction.
For your information, my publisher, Paladin Press, offers a wide variety of videotapes on defensive knife use in the PAL standard. Check out our web site (www.paladin-press.com) for more information. As for DVDs, most small publishers can't afford the overhead of large duplication runs. VHS is still the most economical format for specialty markets like MBC.
In my opinion, your comment "How can you learn anything in one day?" underestimates the MBC program and your own ability to learn. The students we've had so far have learned quite a bit in each 8-hour block and two (that I know of) have already applied some of that knowledge defensively.
Finally, I'd love to visit Sweden. Please get some of your fellow countrymen interested in MBC and keep us informed. If the interest is there, we can be too.
Thanks again for your response.
mike j
Thank you very much for your reply. It's especially interesting to get input from someone overseas. We often focus so heavily on the U.S. domestic scene that we forget to consider the circumstances of our friends abroad.
A few comments on your input...
The current MBC curriculum does cover defenses at all ranges. I emphasize the idea of working at long range to disable and escape, but fully realize that this is often not possible. As the student progresses, we introduce close-range tactics and ultimately move into body-contact range and grappling.
Based on your references to "ramp," I'm assuming you're a Gunting user. The general MBC classes are designed to work with any knife, but for Gunting folks, I do include the extra "spice" that design offers in my instruction.
For your information, my publisher, Paladin Press, offers a wide variety of videotapes on defensive knife use in the PAL standard. Check out our web site (www.paladin-press.com) for more information. As for DVDs, most small publishers can't afford the overhead of large duplication runs. VHS is still the most economical format for specialty markets like MBC.
In my opinion, your comment "How can you learn anything in one day?" underestimates the MBC program and your own ability to learn. The students we've had so far have learned quite a bit in each 8-hour block and two (that I know of) have already applied some of that knowledge defensively.
Finally, I'd love to visit Sweden. Please get some of your fellow countrymen interested in MBC and keep us informed. If the interest is there, we can be too.
Thanks again for your response.
mike j
-
Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 3320
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
Dear Panzer Lied:
Thank you very much for your input. With the help of folks like you, we are developing a much better understanding of the needs of the MBC market and can structure our program to meet those needs as effectively as possible.
With regard to "road trips," since the program is still in its early stages, we are presently conducting all classes here in Colorado to ensure positive control and high-quality facilities. However, we do understand that travel to Colorado sometimes isn't practical and are open to the idea of taking MBC on the road. One idea might be to choose an east coast location, a midwest location, and a west coast location in addition to the Colorado-based classes. What cities do MBCers think would work best?
Thanks also for your feedback on the flyers. I'm already working on upgrading their quality to better reflect the professionalism of the program and the participants.
Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.
mike j
Thank you very much for your input. With the help of folks like you, we are developing a much better understanding of the needs of the MBC market and can structure our program to meet those needs as effectively as possible.
With regard to "road trips," since the program is still in its early stages, we are presently conducting all classes here in Colorado to ensure positive control and high-quality facilities. However, we do understand that travel to Colorado sometimes isn't practical and are open to the idea of taking MBC on the road. One idea might be to choose an east coast location, a midwest location, and a west coast location in addition to the Colorado-based classes. What cities do MBCers think would work best?
Thanks also for your feedback on the flyers. I'm already working on upgrading their quality to better reflect the professionalism of the program and the participants.
Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.
mike j
"How can you learn anything in one day?"
Even a slow learner like me can learn lots in one day - it just takes me a while to make it mine and to get comfy with it...I go to seminars to learn what to train at home.
It's "Become an expert in one day!" that smacks of hypes to me.
Mike, I vote for Victoria BC !
<a href=" http://raisingcanes.net">The Fighting Old Man</a>
Even a slow learner like me can learn lots in one day - it just takes me a while to make it mine and to get comfy with it...I go to seminars to learn what to train at home.
It's "Become an expert in one day!" that smacks of hypes to me.
Mike, I vote for Victoria BC !
<a href=" http://raisingcanes.net">The Fighting Old Man</a>
