I'm fortunate to have an experienced attorney as a lifelong friend. She is a deputy DA in a northern California jurisdiction. Together, we viewed Bram's tapes and talked over device enhanced self-defense. I won't go into heavy detail regarding the discussion, but there are a few interesting highlights:
The Black G is within the blade length restrictions of the major municipality of her district, which is three inches. Of course, many folders are not, yet they are legal per state code. The local police selectively enforce this ordinance, but it is on the books. Know the local knife laws in the jurisdiction in which you carry. More cities may adopt blade lenght limits unless citizens object.
She liked Bram's presentation regarding the G's escalation of force and armed defense. If she was a defense counsel in a civil case, defending legitimate use of an closed or opened Gunting, she would present the training materials and courses as evidence of the plantiff's responsible preparation. It would set well with the jury. She noted that in officer invovled lethal force cases, training methodology is a major focus. Attitudes and phases like "better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six" and "killing is the only option" draw greater scrutiny from the DA's office. In legitimate self-defense, the result maybe death, but that should not be the single goal of the defender. That single goal and "intent" can generate further interest from the DA. Self-defense cases where there is no lethal outcome and defense cases involving death are worlds apart in her office.
Her and her husband had a debate about the CRMIPT. He's also a lawyer (corporate type). He was arguing that since the CRMIPT had no edge, it was not a knife, and thus and no utility as a common tool. Moreover, it was designed solely as a impact weapon, and under state code could be classified as a dangerous weapon; restricted much like collapsible batons (a felony in Calif. for citizens). He did'nt like my training drone as well, but I think there's some personal stuff here.
She simply said, "My husband is a slimely, stuffed-shirt, cheese ball lawyer, who's never seen a real courtroom. But, his argument might hold water with some judges." I countered his argument with the "what-if concept" Rescue Gunting, with partial serrations, blunt tip and stamped "Rescue Tool". I got him there.
The point here is; Calif.(if not all) weapon laws are poorly written and wide-open to interpretation. Covening authorities will have varied intrepretations of both state codified and district policy laws.
Just some thoughts.
None of these comments constitute legal advice. - Written under recommendation of counsel...
"Everybody hates lawyers, with the possible exception of their own attorney."
Guntings and my lawyers
Hmm... interesting stuff. Something that might be pertinent: I've seen two cases where a closed folding knife was essentially considered to be a deadly weapon. Meaning that, you're only legally allowed to draw even a closed knife when you believe that lethal force is necessary.
I'd guess the reasoning is that there's no escalation of force from closed to open in a knife; in the same way that there's no escalation of force from safety on to safety off in a gun.
Ain't saying it's right, just check with a lawyer and know the laws in your area.
I'd guess the reasoning is that there's no escalation of force from closed to open in a knife; in the same way that there's no escalation of force from safety on to safety off in a gun.
Ain't saying it's right, just check with a lawyer and know the laws in your area.
Hmm,
This could only mean that you need a good lawyer. Plea fifth, I´m not from the states but I believe you have a law that makes it possible to not say anything because it could incriminate you in a later trial.
Pay the lawyer and let him do his work.
As usual it is the organism which is best prepared for the environment that it resides in that will survive. Lots of cash (for the lawyer/s) and friends in the right places will help a lot. <b>Pray for peace, prepare for war </b> (in all walks of life, physically, economically, psychologically). Beat them in their own backyard. Is this not the teachings of Musashi and Sun Tzu applied to today´s circumstances?
Nothing more nothing less.
/Colinz
This could only mean that you need a good lawyer. Plea fifth, I´m not from the states but I believe you have a law that makes it possible to not say anything because it could incriminate you in a later trial.
Pay the lawyer and let him do his work.
As usual it is the organism which is best prepared for the environment that it resides in that will survive. Lots of cash (for the lawyer/s) and friends in the right places will help a lot. <b>Pray for peace, prepare for war </b> (in all walks of life, physically, economically, psychologically). Beat them in their own backyard. Is this not the teachings of Musashi and Sun Tzu applied to today´s circumstances?
Nothing more nothing less.
/Colinz
Lol, that is so scary you cant help but laugh, a knife with no edge been classified in that way, sheesh.
So now the courts wouldnt like you to carry a weapon in which you beat the guy(not killing him) since its got no util use, yet they'd see things from a different view if you had to turn your attacker into a pin cushion with a blade you use to slice your fruit with.
Well if carrying a blade for the reason of defending ones life is seen in such a light.
Then I guess we sure as **** cant carry guns incase an unfortunate situation occurs.
What a strange world we live in 2day
It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum
So now the courts wouldnt like you to carry a weapon in which you beat the guy(not killing him) since its got no util use, yet they'd see things from a different view if you had to turn your attacker into a pin cushion with a blade you use to slice your fruit with.
Well if carrying a blade for the reason of defending ones life is seen in such a light.
Then I guess we sure as **** cant carry guns incase an unfortunate situation occurs.
What a strange world we live in 2day
It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum
As the GUNTING..a new animal on the block moves into user reality it will set new standards of whats allowed..
There has never been a specifically use it closed tool before that can open to either a longer range blunt tool or a live edge tool..
I know..The patent came today..says its unique and a first...
As the LEO world, Security world and Martial Arts world start to use it full time. new ways of seeing it will arise..all of which will be documented and discussed.
Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement said it is the BEST less than lethal tool EVER designed or made and recommended it for the SWAT guys...and overall LEO usage...
so..Well I'll try to get Peter to come on and comment..might as well get the Atty on the forum..RIGHT?
thanks to all of you for giving the GUNTING a chance!
There has never been a specifically use it closed tool before that can open to either a longer range blunt tool or a live edge tool..
I know..The patent came today..says its unique and a first...
As the LEO world, Security world and Martial Arts world start to use it full time. new ways of seeing it will arise..all of which will be documented and discussed.
Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement said it is the BEST less than lethal tool EVER designed or made and recommended it for the SWAT guys...and overall LEO usage...
so..Well I'll try to get Peter to come on and comment..might as well get the Atty on the forum..RIGHT?
thanks to all of you for giving the GUNTING a chance!
Bram,
Congratulations on the patent! It's quite an achievement. I can't wait for more varients.
While certain folks will always fret over any self-defense tool, the Gunting system helps to defray the critics by staying within many blade laws, and offering effective less than lethal options.
It may not be for everyone, that's fine; However, you have provided an option that many were seeking.
Nicely Done..
Congratulations on the patent! It's quite an achievement. I can't wait for more varients.
While certain folks will always fret over any self-defense tool, the Gunting system helps to defray the critics by staying within many blade laws, and offering effective less than lethal options.
It may not be for everyone, that's fine; However, you have provided an option that many were seeking.
Nicely Done..
Great,
First drawing/picture I´ve seen of a Gunting with the serrated edge. Looks good.
This made me want my Gunting even more. I ordered one yesterday and two trainers will follow (have to get one for my sparring partner too).
I´ll be looking forward to different versions (doesn´t the knife pictured in figure 10 have an appr. 4 inch blade?)<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
/Colinz<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
First drawing/picture I´ve seen of a Gunting with the serrated edge. Looks good.
This made me want my Gunting even more. I ordered one yesterday and two trainers will follow (have to get one for my sparring partner too).
I´ll be looking forward to different versions (doesn´t the knife pictured in figure 10 have an appr. 4 inch blade?)<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
/Colinz<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
An interesting &(sadly)necessary thread!
Question:In the'Plain vs.Serrated Edge'thread I comment on the legal implications of apperance of the knife.I got these thought from Massad Ayoob's articles in 'Combat Handguns'.Can or will any of you lawyers comment on this? Am I on the right track or blowing smoke? I teach self-defence classes & while I try to get a lwayer to lecture sometimes I get questions when the lawter isn't around & I don't want to give out misleading info.
The comments on the dull Grunting trainers brought a thought to mind:?how would a cane or walking stick be considered;assuming the carrier had no obvious need for the cane for support? Respects.
Question:In the'Plain vs.Serrated Edge'thread I comment on the legal implications of apperance of the knife.I got these thought from Massad Ayoob's articles in 'Combat Handguns'.Can or will any of you lawyers comment on this? Am I on the right track or blowing smoke? I teach self-defence classes & while I try to get a lwayer to lecture sometimes I get questions when the lawter isn't around & I don't want to give out misleading info.
The comments on the dull Grunting trainers brought a thought to mind:?how would a cane or walking stick be considered;assuming the carrier had no obvious need for the cane for support? Respects.
earthworm - I'll ask the deputy DA
I have a dexterity problems with my hands, I use the Gunting for utility since it's easy to open. The Emerson wave models help me here as well.
Huntercl-
Ckeck this URL.
http://www.findlaw.com/california/ca01_ ... icode.html
Also, check State penal code; be aware that schools, colleges and Goverment property have extra prohibtions regarding knives.
Stay sharp on the law, and check it out yourself.
Stay safe
I have a dexterity problems with my hands, I use the Gunting for utility since it's easy to open. The Emerson wave models help me here as well.
Huntercl-
Ckeck this URL.
http://www.findlaw.com/california/ca01_ ... icode.html
Also, check State penal code; be aware that schools, colleges and Goverment property have extra prohibtions regarding knives.
Stay sharp on the law, and check it out yourself.
Stay safe
-
christopher
- Member
- Posts: 385
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Highlands Ranch, CO, USA
The more we get officials like Massad Ayoob of LFI stating that the GUNTING is a tool that does non lethal to less than lethal..before it moves to lethal and the DRONE & CRMIPT NEVER get over non lethal...thats good credibility..
As LEO magazines describe the DRONE & CRMIPT as the best non lethal -less than lethal tool ever designed... thats credibility..
As official departments & security personel begin to carry the DRONE or the CRMIPT because its non lethal to less than lethal.. well thats adds to the strength of the design and the intent.
The GUNTING System is new,,its a new concept..I hope that time bears out my faith in the design andd the project in whole...
all of this ads up with the intent of the design to protect the user if one needs to actually use the DRONE or CRMIPOT or GUNTING.
The ability to use the force continuum without skipping directly to lethal force, don't pass go, do not collect $200..go directly to jail...
have a great day!
As LEO magazines describe the DRONE & CRMIPT as the best non lethal -less than lethal tool ever designed... thats credibility..
As official departments & security personel begin to carry the DRONE or the CRMIPT because its non lethal to less than lethal.. well thats adds to the strength of the design and the intent.
The GUNTING System is new,,its a new concept..I hope that time bears out my faith in the design andd the project in whole...
all of this ads up with the intent of the design to protect the user if one needs to actually use the DRONE or CRMIPOT or GUNTING.
The ability to use the force continuum without skipping directly to lethal force, don't pass go, do not collect $200..go directly to jail...
have a great day!