I am 15 years old, and I have just started to love and collect knives. I have about 5 or 6 of varying steels, but I was wonder about them.
1. Which steel is the best by your opinions/experiences?
2. What do the different names and numbers mean?
3. What are characteristics of each?
4.What are the intended applications for each?
Thanks alot! I'm just trying to learn more about my new hobby.
Blade Steel
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Kyoto_the_Shadow
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vampyrewolf
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- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
Wow, you are searching for an answer to a question that I'm not sure there is an answer to. If you ask 10 serious knife guys what their favorite steel is and why, you will probably get 10 different answers. Some people base their favorite steel on edge holding only, some only on toughness, and some on rust resistance, then there are the rest of us who use some combination of the above to rate steels. Price can also be an issue. You also have to factor in the heat treat of the blades, a lot of people like 440V from Spyderco, but say 440V from Kershaw is lacking some in it's heat treat for example, so the same steel is superior from one place to another.
I'll give a shot to answering your questions though.
1. For stainless steels, I like BG-42 and VG-10. Both hold an edge well, seem to be tough enough for the folders they are in, and I have had neither one rust on me. For non-stainless steel, I don't have a lot of experience. I know M2 is pretty nice, and it worked well for a while in my AFCK I carried, 1095 is a good steel that is quite low priced, and A2 seems to be an excellent choice for toughness/edgeholding, but I have yet to use it in the field to prove it.
2. The names and numbers all mean different things. Your best bet is to check out the steel chart here to get a basic idea of what each steel is.
3. Again, too broad of a topic to tackle here. You might try going to bladeforums and doing a search in the knife reviews and general sections. Please search for info there before you post asking for it though.
4. Again, the search a BFC will probably give you a start for an answer, but this one really is tough to tackle.
I'll give a shot to answering your questions though.
1. For stainless steels, I like BG-42 and VG-10. Both hold an edge well, seem to be tough enough for the folders they are in, and I have had neither one rust on me. For non-stainless steel, I don't have a lot of experience. I know M2 is pretty nice, and it worked well for a while in my AFCK I carried, 1095 is a good steel that is quite low priced, and A2 seems to be an excellent choice for toughness/edgeholding, but I have yet to use it in the field to prove it.
2. The names and numbers all mean different things. Your best bet is to check out the steel chart here to get a basic idea of what each steel is.
3. Again, too broad of a topic to tackle here. You might try going to bladeforums and doing a search in the knife reviews and general sections. Please search for info there before you post asking for it though.
4. Again, the search a BFC will probably give you a start for an answer, but this one really is tough to tackle.
Here is a repost of something I wrote some time ago. It should help answer question #4:
One thing that has always bothered me a bit about many arguments over the virtues and weaknesses of various steels used in knives is that the intent of the metallurgists that formulated these steels is generally omitted. One thing we tend to overlook is that most of these steels have been <i>adapted</i> for use in cutlery. Very few, if any, steels have been formulated expressly for the small (in industrial terms) knife industry.
So for my own edification I spent an evening digging around to see what I could find about the primary purspose of these steels which many of us are rather passionate about. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> I decided to share my findings with whomever may be interested:
<font size ="-1">
I've limited this to steels being used or expected to be used for production folding knives. Whenever possible, I've quoted manufacturer (or other expert) text. Any errors are my own.
</font>
<center>
<b>TOOL STEELS</b>
</center>
For the most part "tool steels" are those steels used for the tooling of industrial manufacturing processes. This includes both stainless and non-stainless alloys, and uses varying fom bearings, rollers, cutters/saws, dies, &c.
<u>High Carbon</u>
A-2: An air-hardened steel designed for "Gauges, forming rolls, thread rollers, bending dies, cold blanking dies, coining dies, cold trimming dies, punches, &c."
M-2: A "high-speed" steel that retains its temper in high volume, high temperature manufacturing operations. Designed for "drills, taps, punches, reamers, broaches, planer knives, lathe tools, forge dies, form cutters, milling cutters, end mills, gear cutters and many other cutting tool applications."
D-2: Considered by many to be "semi-stainless," is is designed to be used for: "Blanking, drawing, forming, coining, lamination, thread rolling and trimming dies, burnishing tools, gauges, lathe centers, punches."
<u>High-Carbon Stainless</u>
440C (and related Japanese AUS 10): "...Designed for a combination of high wear resistance and moderate corrosion resistance in mild environments." Appears to be primarily a ball-bearing steel: "This material is used extensively in bearing applications where precise tolerances and surface finishes are required." Actually all 400 grades seem to be ball-bearing steels, from 420 for low-grade bearings through 440C for high-grade bearings. I assume this is the same purpose of the equivalent AUS steels from Japan.
<u>High-Carbon Stainless Particle</u>
These new tool steels appear to have been produced by Crucible Metallurgy primarily for the plastics industry, which requires high corrosion-resistance as well as high wear-resistance for their tooling.
CPM-S60V (formerly 440V): "Corrosion resistance comparable to T440C stainless steel, with wear resistance many times greater than that of T440C, D2 and M2 tool steels."
CPM-S90V (formerly 420V): "The exceptional wear resistance and good corrosion resistance of CPM 420V make it an excellent candidate to replace 440C and other corrosion and wear resistant materials, particularly where increased wear resistance is a primary concern." Used for: "Injection and extrusion screw and barrel components; wear components for food, plastic, and chemical processing equipment; pelletizing knives; slitters, cutters, chipper knives; bearings, bushings, cams, gears, valves; rolls."
CPM-3V: "...Designed to provide maximum resistance to breakage and chipping in a high wear-resistance steel. It offers impact resistance greater than A2, D2, Cru-Wear, or CPM M4, approaching the levels provided by S7 and other shock resistant grades, while retaining the wear resistance, high hardness, and thermal stability for coating offered by high alloy wear resistant grades. CPM 3V is intended to be used at 58/60 HRC in applications where chronic breakage and chipping are encountered in other tool steels, but where the wear properties of a high alloy P/M steel are required." Used for: "Stamping or Forming Tools; Blanking Dies; Shear Blades; Scrap Choppers; Plastic Injection & Extrusion Feedscrews; Punches & Dies; Fineblanking Tools; Industrial Knives & Slitters; Rolls."
(Sounds almost ideal for knives, no?)
<center>
<b>AEROSPACE STEELS</b>
</center>
154-CM: Developed by Crucible for use in aircraft engine turbine blades, it is a "high speed" steel that can operate at high temperatures without losing temper. ATS-34 is Hitachi's clone of 154-CM, supposedly manufactured for the knife industry.
BG-42: A "high speed" VIM VAR* steel developed for use in bearings and rollers in turbine engines, as well as ball screws, aircraft gears, &c. (*Vacuum Induction Melt / Vacuum Arc Remelt.)
<center>
<b>CUTLERY STEELS</b>
</center>
Info on the origin of these Japanese cutlery steels is hard to come by, but here is what I've got:
ATS-55: A steel made by Hitachi, based on ATS-34 but modified specifically for use in cutlery.
VG-10: A limited production steel produced by a single small mill in Japan, it appears to have formulated specifically for use in cutlery. Hearsay links its creation either to the medical field for surgical knives, or to cutting implements used by horticulturalists.
One thing that has always bothered me a bit about many arguments over the virtues and weaknesses of various steels used in knives is that the intent of the metallurgists that formulated these steels is generally omitted. One thing we tend to overlook is that most of these steels have been <i>adapted</i> for use in cutlery. Very few, if any, steels have been formulated expressly for the small (in industrial terms) knife industry.
So for my own edification I spent an evening digging around to see what I could find about the primary purspose of these steels which many of us are rather passionate about. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> I decided to share my findings with whomever may be interested:
<font size ="-1">
I've limited this to steels being used or expected to be used for production folding knives. Whenever possible, I've quoted manufacturer (or other expert) text. Any errors are my own.
</font>
<center>
<b>TOOL STEELS</b>
</center>
For the most part "tool steels" are those steels used for the tooling of industrial manufacturing processes. This includes both stainless and non-stainless alloys, and uses varying fom bearings, rollers, cutters/saws, dies, &c.
<u>High Carbon</u>
A-2: An air-hardened steel designed for "Gauges, forming rolls, thread rollers, bending dies, cold blanking dies, coining dies, cold trimming dies, punches, &c."
M-2: A "high-speed" steel that retains its temper in high volume, high temperature manufacturing operations. Designed for "drills, taps, punches, reamers, broaches, planer knives, lathe tools, forge dies, form cutters, milling cutters, end mills, gear cutters and many other cutting tool applications."
D-2: Considered by many to be "semi-stainless," is is designed to be used for: "Blanking, drawing, forming, coining, lamination, thread rolling and trimming dies, burnishing tools, gauges, lathe centers, punches."
<u>High-Carbon Stainless</u>
440C (and related Japanese AUS 10): "...Designed for a combination of high wear resistance and moderate corrosion resistance in mild environments." Appears to be primarily a ball-bearing steel: "This material is used extensively in bearing applications where precise tolerances and surface finishes are required." Actually all 400 grades seem to be ball-bearing steels, from 420 for low-grade bearings through 440C for high-grade bearings. I assume this is the same purpose of the equivalent AUS steels from Japan.
<u>High-Carbon Stainless Particle</u>
These new tool steels appear to have been produced by Crucible Metallurgy primarily for the plastics industry, which requires high corrosion-resistance as well as high wear-resistance for their tooling.
CPM-S60V (formerly 440V): "Corrosion resistance comparable to T440C stainless steel, with wear resistance many times greater than that of T440C, D2 and M2 tool steels."
CPM-S90V (formerly 420V): "The exceptional wear resistance and good corrosion resistance of CPM 420V make it an excellent candidate to replace 440C and other corrosion and wear resistant materials, particularly where increased wear resistance is a primary concern." Used for: "Injection and extrusion screw and barrel components; wear components for food, plastic, and chemical processing equipment; pelletizing knives; slitters, cutters, chipper knives; bearings, bushings, cams, gears, valves; rolls."
CPM-3V: "...Designed to provide maximum resistance to breakage and chipping in a high wear-resistance steel. It offers impact resistance greater than A2, D2, Cru-Wear, or CPM M4, approaching the levels provided by S7 and other shock resistant grades, while retaining the wear resistance, high hardness, and thermal stability for coating offered by high alloy wear resistant grades. CPM 3V is intended to be used at 58/60 HRC in applications where chronic breakage and chipping are encountered in other tool steels, but where the wear properties of a high alloy P/M steel are required." Used for: "Stamping or Forming Tools; Blanking Dies; Shear Blades; Scrap Choppers; Plastic Injection & Extrusion Feedscrews; Punches & Dies; Fineblanking Tools; Industrial Knives & Slitters; Rolls."
(Sounds almost ideal for knives, no?)
<center>
<b>AEROSPACE STEELS</b>
</center>
154-CM: Developed by Crucible for use in aircraft engine turbine blades, it is a "high speed" steel that can operate at high temperatures without losing temper. ATS-34 is Hitachi's clone of 154-CM, supposedly manufactured for the knife industry.
BG-42: A "high speed" VIM VAR* steel developed for use in bearings and rollers in turbine engines, as well as ball screws, aircraft gears, &c. (*Vacuum Induction Melt / Vacuum Arc Remelt.)
<center>
<b>CUTLERY STEELS</b>
</center>
Info on the origin of these Japanese cutlery steels is hard to come by, but here is what I've got:
ATS-55: A steel made by Hitachi, based on ATS-34 but modified specifically for use in cutlery.
VG-10: A limited production steel produced by a single small mill in Japan, it appears to have formulated specifically for use in cutlery. Hearsay links its creation either to the medical field for surgical knives, or to cutting implements used by horticulturalists.
Thanx guys. Your knowledge and willingness to share knowledge is impressive. A true virtue in modern times.
Kyoto, these types of communications are not as common as they could or should be, appreciate.
Study the steel chart and compare the numbers for a better understanding of each. Try to keep in mind that all of the "good blade steels" are good. "All good, just different". Best is not possible. Best for a particular purpose might be closer, but still difficult. Several steels might be good for a particular purpose, each with advantages and drawbacks. Also keep in mind that these are small differences in the "good steel" arena.
All F1 cars are fast. some are better in the corners, some better at tire wear, some have a higher top speed, some have more skilled drivers. Hard to say which one is best...even on the same race track. Because next week they race on a different track.
sal
Kyoto, these types of communications are not as common as they could or should be, appreciate.
Study the steel chart and compare the numbers for a better understanding of each. Try to keep in mind that all of the "good blade steels" are good. "All good, just different". Best is not possible. Best for a particular purpose might be closer, but still difficult. Several steels might be good for a particular purpose, each with advantages and drawbacks. Also keep in mind that these are small differences in the "good steel" arena.
All F1 cars are fast. some are better in the corners, some better at tire wear, some have a higher top speed, some have more skilled drivers. Hard to say which one is best...even on the same race track. Because next week they race on a different track.
sal
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Kyoto_the_Shadow
- Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Everywhere and Nowhere... USA
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Joe Talmadge
- Member
- Posts: 1077
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Kyoto --
I think everyone goes through this at some point or other. You want to learn everything about knives as quickly as possible, and what would be really convenient is if there's a canonical list of best steels, in order from best to worst. However, steel characteristics are a jumble of tradeoffs of toughness, strength, wear resistance, cost, ease-of-machining, ease-of-heat-treat etc. As a result, although many people will post canonical lists, I assure you none of them are strictly correct. It totally depends on the particular knife and what exactly it's being used for.
As a result, I feel learning about steels is a slower (but perhaps more satisfying) process than an enthusiastic knife fan might hope. Your best way to learn about steels isn't by looking at canonical lists, but to also learn about what the various alloying elements do to steel, and to learn about each steel one at a time. Once you feel like you understand about ATS-34 -- both how it performs in real life (through your own experiments) and how the alloys effect its performance -- now you can compare it to, say, BG-42. That will lead you to learn about the affects of the addition of vanadium (more wear resistance, finer grain) and of the differences in steel manufacturing processes (AOD vs vacuum remelting).
In the meantime, whenever you hear someone say "X steel is better than Y", ask exactly why they're saying that. Does X hold an edge better than Y? How come? Does X's increased edge holding come at a sacrifice of any other property, perhaps toughness?
In the meantime, one resource you can use is: www.bladeforums.com/features/faqsteel.shtml
Joe
Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 4/15/2001 11:21:20 AM
I think everyone goes through this at some point or other. You want to learn everything about knives as quickly as possible, and what would be really convenient is if there's a canonical list of best steels, in order from best to worst. However, steel characteristics are a jumble of tradeoffs of toughness, strength, wear resistance, cost, ease-of-machining, ease-of-heat-treat etc. As a result, although many people will post canonical lists, I assure you none of them are strictly correct. It totally depends on the particular knife and what exactly it's being used for.
As a result, I feel learning about steels is a slower (but perhaps more satisfying) process than an enthusiastic knife fan might hope. Your best way to learn about steels isn't by looking at canonical lists, but to also learn about what the various alloying elements do to steel, and to learn about each steel one at a time. Once you feel like you understand about ATS-34 -- both how it performs in real life (through your own experiments) and how the alloys effect its performance -- now you can compare it to, say, BG-42. That will lead you to learn about the affects of the addition of vanadium (more wear resistance, finer grain) and of the differences in steel manufacturing processes (AOD vs vacuum remelting).
In the meantime, whenever you hear someone say "X steel is better than Y", ask exactly why they're saying that. Does X hold an edge better than Y? How come? Does X's increased edge holding come at a sacrifice of any other property, perhaps toughness?
In the meantime, one resource you can use is: www.bladeforums.com/features/faqsteel.shtml
Joe
Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 4/15/2001 11:21:20 AM