So, for the purpose of discussion; Any interest in a handle forward and no finger-choil in the design?
sal
I think many here can agree to keep the back lock...
But this one may separate more opinion, regarding choil or not on this one.
I'm personally not dead set either way, I do like the current Police 4 choil, but it seems to be a hard point of contention for some users.
I know they won't be in the same category specifically, but I think I'd like to see this longer version of the _____Jumper (is it Cliff?) first, see how that handle forward looks and operates with a longer blade.
So, for the purpose of discussion; Any interest in a handle forward and no finger-choil in the design?
sal
Hey Sal! My vote would be to keep the choil. The blade would have plenty of cutting edge already, and I'd want the option to choke up. It would make the knife more versitle. I'd pass if it had no choil.
I really don't think a knife that big needs a finger choil. More cutting edge is better for me.
One thing to keep in mind:
With a backlock-knife "handle forward" would not necessarily mean "more cutting edge"... but just that the unsharpened part of the blade (choil, ricasso) is not exposed anymore, but now covered by the handle
(see the Jumpers: Backlock handle forward, but still relatively short cutting edge)
Top three going by pocket-time (update October 25):
- EDC: Endela SE (K390). Endela SE (VG10), Manix 2 LW (REX45)
- Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 2 SE (LC200N), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1)
Thinking of the choil, no-choil and/or blade forward ideas...
If the new model is intended to be an XL version of an earlier model, perhaps it could follow the pattern of that earlier model. Which model will the XL be based on, the stainless or the lightweight? Following the same pattern for the XL helps to keep the family relationship obvious. Otherwise, it might as well be an entirely new, unrelated model. Imagine trying to call a Native Chief a Police XL. There are enough differences to be more like a distant cousin and not in the same immediate family. If someone were to see the new model and not know the name, which other model would their mind connect it to?
When thinking of this question, my mind applies the same thoughts to a Chap XL. If a Chap XL did not have a choil, I would be wondering if it was really a Chap. So, maybe there could be both a stainless XL and a lightweight XL.
Since on a backlock knife a handle forward design will most likely NOT increase the length of the cutting edge, I am actually pro choil on a Police XL...
Why?
1.) On a large knife a choil still leaves enough space on the actual handle for a good four finger grip behind the choil, so a choil is at least no detriment in that regard (unlike it is for example with the Native 5 imo).
2.) and more importantly:
- A Police XL would most likely not have a pinky hook and if it would, most hands would probably not be wide enough to even touch a pinky hook in a normal grip
- Thus a choil where one can put the index finger into, would provide a "secondary guard" behind the index finger and lock in the whole hand resp. prevent it from sliding backwards in certain tasks.
A pinky hook could potentially do the same, but, as explained, not on this design...
Alternatively a handle forward Police XL could create a secondary guard / deeper finger groove for the index finger in the handle itself of course
Top three going by pocket-time (update October 25):
- EDC: Endela SE (K390). Endela SE (VG10), Manix 2 LW (REX45)
- Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 2 SE (LC200N), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1)
Figure choil is a tough one as the original police wasn't designed with a choil. Maybe switching to something similar to the Leaf Jumper blade to handle transition that would bridge the gap and maximize blade length.
Have a drawing for a 5.0" Police, full flat, finger-choil and fairly neutral handle like the P4.
I have a drawing coming for a 5.0" blade Police, full flat, swedge on spine, handle forward and edge to the handle and fairly neutral handle like the P4.
Interesting that the finger choil becomes a preference one way or the other?
Handle forward sounds really interesting on a blade this size. I personally couldn't see myself preferring the finger choil compared to just being able to get my full grip as close to the edge as possible when you're talking about a 5" blade. Now we're really talking about a folding sword!
Have a drawing for a 5.0" Police, full flat, finger-choil and fairly neutral handle like the P4.
I have a drawing coming for a 5.0" blade Police, full flat, swedge on spine, handle forward and edge to the handle and fairly neutral handle like the P4.
Interesting that the finger choil becomes a preference one way or the other?
sal
When I compare knives, when thinking about utility, I look at edge length, not blade length. I guess I'm in the minority on that.
I only consider blade length when I think about where I can legally carry a knife, not whether it is a knife I want to own.
...
Interesting that the finger choil becomes a preference one way or the other?
..
Sal, as said, in my case the "pro choil" is closely related to the superlong size of the handle:
The choil gives one the opportunity to lock the index into exactly that choil and thus prevent the hand from sliding backwards in certain tasks.
(On other designs with shorter handle a "parrot beak" on the handle end could achieve pretty much the same, but not on a Police XL...)
Of course a finger grove for the index finger in a "handle forward" design would work as well as a "classic" Spyderco 50:50 choil.
Top three going by pocket-time (update October 25):
- EDC: Endela SE (K390). Endela SE (VG10), Manix 2 LW (REX45)
- Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 2 SE (LC200N), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1)
Figure choil is a tough one as the original police wasn't designed with a choil. Maybe switching to something similar to the Leaf Jumper blade to handle transition that would bridge the gap and maximize blade length.
If you look at the Leaf Jumper: On a backlock knife "handle forward" would most likely maximize neither blade- nor edge-lemgth... (but still is a great approach, don't get me wrong!)
Top three going by pocket-time (update October 25):
- EDC: Endela SE (K390). Endela SE (VG10), Manix 2 LW (REX45)
- Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 2 SE (LC200N), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1)
I have a couple of requests for possible design consideration:
1. Have a couple of extra flat landing spots for the clip designed into the FRN's handle texturing, to accommodate preferences for both tip-up and tip-down carry. Being XL, there is no way that the clip will ever reach the flat center logo, and making a special extra-long clip would not be a good solution.
My P4 LWT can only be clip-carried tip-down, as that's the position where the clip lands on the logo. When positioned for tip-up carry, the clip falls short of fully landing on the logo, and it's a pocket shredder.
2. Have it to where the tip of the blade rests far enough into the handle when closed. My P4 LWT's tip just fits inside the handle ... barely. I could imagine after enough sharpenings that the tip would become exposed in the closed position, which would necessitate grinding down the spine near the tip.
Jim
Last edited by James Y on Tue Mar 25, 2025 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
I vote choil-less. I like choils for fine cutting, but dislike them for snagging material. As long as the ability press the lock and catch the blade safely with your index finger is maintained, handle forward seems the way to go. And I will absolutely be buying one of these.
Gets you just a little more edge over say the Endura choil design.
The image brings up a minor design choice regarding the thumb ramp area. I prefer the extension of the scales partly up the ramp, as on the LT3 LW. Same thinking as for index finger choils: if I'm supposed to use it as part of my grip, it might as well be made comfortable / provide good support - especially for (occasional, in my case) hard use.
