Spyderco Forums

yablanowitz wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:14 am

Maybe they should just do away with pricing altogether and give everything away. I'm sure that won't hurt them at all.

Seriously, you're blaming MAP for inflation. Get a grip.

Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I personally have no stake in this MAP issue. Just bringing a little levity to the thread...

Jim

JRinFL wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:02 am

I don't like MAP at all, but accept the need for it. I just think the current MAP is not friendly to Spyderco's best customers. Sure, the dealers could do more to alleviate the issues, but will they?

I don't think its spydercos duty to alleviate price increase.

[snark]If we are doing snark, then why don't they set MAP (0% off) at MSRP. I mean after all, people complained about the 3 MAP increases and still bought knives, so why not take it to the logical conclusion. Also set Seconds at 75% of MSRP because why leave money on the table? Heck, lets' do away with it all and just make it a monthly subscription where you are loaned the latest knife for a month, but don't get to own any. Just like the big software companies do. [/snark]

huyfishin wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:39 am

JRinFL wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:02 am

I don't like MAP at all, but accept the need for it. I just think the current MAP is not friendly to Spyderco's best customers. Sure, the dealers could do more to alleviate the issues, but will they?

I don't think its spydercos duty to alleviate price increase.

Well by the same token, I don’t think it’s Spydercos (the manufacturer’s) duty to protect individual retailers from Amazon.

MAP doesn’t effect distribution and wholesale pricing for Spyderco knives. It primarily just guarantees a higher profit margin for retailers who are incapable of competing at a larger scale. (And forces consumers to pay more for the product they want) MAP is kind of like a participation trophy for small businesses.

I voted yes but could equally have voted no because it does not effect my buying choices. "A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all" so the next consideration is if it does not add nor detract from my purchasing decision then all that is left is simplifying which means removing the unnecessary.

If it is a model that everyone is selling lets say PM2 in S30V or S4VN for example I am going to look around and determine what the actual market price is by looking at more than one source. The one with the best price, shipping and incentive programs (DLT Rewards) and actually has inventory ready to ship gets my money.

So you can have MAP all day long but in the long run it will be what people are willing to sell for and what people are willing to buy for.

Mushroom wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:17 am

huyfishin wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:39 am

JRinFL wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:02 am

I don't like MAP at all, but accept the need for it. I just think the current MAP is not friendly to Spyderco's best customers. Sure, the dealers could do more to alleviate the issues, but will they?

I don't think its spydercos duty to alleviate price increase.

Well by the same token, I don’t think it’s Spydercos (the manufacturer’s) duty to protect individual retailers from Amazon.

MAP doesn’t effect distribution and wholesale pricing for Spyderco knives. It primarily just guarantees a higher profit margin for retailers who are incapable of competing at a larger scale. (And forces consumers to pay more for the product they want) MAP is kind of like a participation trophy for small businesses.

actually spyderco should protect dealers. Ensuring the dealers are profitable and motivating retailers to sell is always a business priority. Map is there to equally help everyone both buyers and retailers.

The retailers are not competing against amazon. All the knives you see on amazon.ca and .com including walmart.ca and .com are just third party retailers using amazon and walmart to handle logistics/payments and returns. In reality the retailer selling through amazon is making less then any other online knife retailer since amazon wants a large cut. sometimes the cost of the knife on amazon is much more then BHQ and Knifecenter just to make up for the amazon fee's

(on a side note,semi off topic)
Some people wonder if "if i'm buying manufacturer direct from spyderco, shouldn't i be getting a better deal since we cut out the middle man?"
In some cases manufacturers will charge more then retailers when buying direct. By selling directly to consumers from the factory, they are risking years of goodwill with retailers. They want to make sure that retailers have every reasonable opportunity to make the sale to the consumer. Hence why some manufacturers will always recommend buying from a retailer before buying manufacturer direct. The online stores from manufacturers are just there to fill in the gaps incase your retailers don't carry what you're looking for. Just using this as an example of why they need to protect retailers. No retailers then no sales.

Its just business

huyfishin wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:36 pm

Map is there to … help … buyers

Sir you’ll have to help the less savvy among us understand how consumers have been helped by MAP since its introduction.

I've been following the tread and please believe me that this MAP thing has been a stress for all of us for years. We have to hire special "cops" just to monitor and try to control the big boxes. A real PITA. We try to keep prices as low as we can and still stay in business. As mentioned, dealers to have the discretion to sell below MAP, just not to advertise below MAP.

Funny stories about we "Oldsters".

sal

ekastanis wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:49 pm

huyfishin wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:36 pm

Map is there to … help … buyers

Sir you’ll have to help the less savvy among us understand how consumers have been helped by MAP since its introduction.

Without a measure like that you get the Walmart Effect. The big players use their big bank accounts with lower fees/costs for them to push prices lower (temporarily) till the small folks either go out of business or drop the line. When that happens they push the prices back up and start pressuring the maker reduce the quality of the product so their purchase order costs are lowered. Spoiler Alert: They don't pass those saving onto their customers.

So if you're a shareholder in one of those big online entities MAP is awful. For the rest of us it's not ideal but the alternative is unacceptable.

And of course as sidebar they also end the exclusive and sprint models since the fewer SKUs there are the easier it is for them.

It is very challenging to deal with the difference those that are in business with the primary value to make as much profit as possible, regardless of how and those that have other value systems in place. At Spyderco, we put the knife first. Quality, performance, variety and a fair price to the customer. We highly value our exceptional staff, which is shy we have numerous veterans of over 20 years. ELU's are critical to please as are our vendors.

We have to make enough profit to be successful, without gouging. Our vendors have to make enough profit also to be successful without gouging us, which in turn hurts our mutual customers.

sal

Curious to see:

• 2023 Retail Price Guide
• 2023 MAP Discount Rate

Spyderco MAP:

• 40% off MSRP Starting JAN 2016
• 35% off MSRP Starting JAN 2018
• 30% off MSRP Starting JAN 2020

I don't think there's a win win here. I think no matter what Spyderco chooses, someone will lose out. I guess go with what makes the most sense for the most people. (Which is what I assume they have BEEN doing).

Discounts for 60+? Where do I sign up for that. I'll fortunately be 63 this year, fortunate because I am alive and love being alive and seeing a new day.

I’d be happy to get a seniors discount. My dad will make all my purchases for me.

RamZar wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:42 pm

Curious to see:

• 2023 Retail Price Guide
• 2023 MAP Discount Rate

Spyderco MAP:

• 40% off MSRP Starting JAN 2016
• 35% off MSRP Starting JAN 2018
• 30% off MSRP Starting JAN 2020

I really love this brand, but at the same time, I'm genuinely afraid of the time when it comes to less than 30% off MSRP while prices still continue to rise annually/biennially.

ekastanis wrote:

huyfishin wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:36 pm

Map is there to … help … buyers

Sir you’ll have to help the less savvy among us understand how consumers have been helped by MAP since its introduction.

MAP protects small dealers, which in my personal opinion protects me as a customer. I don't buy knives from Amazon, because, lets face it, they don't really have an interest in creating a good relationship with their customers, they just aim to make the maximum profit. In my experience, the only time they help you out is if they think they would be hurting themselves if they didn't. Not a pleasant way to be treated. However, I have had wonderful experiences with half a dozen small dealers who value their customers and will do whatever it takes to make me happy with my purchasing experience.

Those are the people I want to buy from and I consider it to be in my best interest if they have a fair chance. Small knife dealers have become one of my favorite discoveries since getting into knives. I would feel awful if they started disappearing and would be far less enthusiastic about acquiring new knives.

sal wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:05 pm

It is very challenging to deal with the difference those that are in business with the primary value to make as much profit as possible, regardless of how and those that have other value systems in place. At Spyderco, we put the knife first. Quality, performance, variety and a fair price to the customer. We highly value our exceptional staff, which is shy we have numerous veterans of over 20 years. ELU's are critical to please as are our vendors.

We have to make enough profit to be successful, without gouging. Our vendors have to make enough profit also to be successful without gouging us, which in turn hurts our mutual customers.

sal

Once I had a philosophy professor who, years previous, had been required to teach a business ethics course. Though he grudgingly acquiesced, many years later he remained convinced it was a b.s. class cut from whole cloth to satisfy a business degree/humanities requirement.

Occasionally when economics was brought up in our class he'd grin and reply, "again, there's no such thing as ethics in business."

I've never owned a business.

I've owned Spyderco products for over 20 years.

Assuming that professor wholeheartedly meant what he said I do believe he'd have a hard time finding words befitting a company like Spyderco.

Why do more retailers not employ the strategy of ‘advertising’ at MAP but selling lower? In other words, a ‘click to add in cart to see final price’ kind of a thing?

I don’t think it would violate any legally written MAP policy and would be an avenue for the retailer to compete based on price. If you *knew* company A routinely sold under MAP, word would get out and you would look there first. Seems like a winning strategy for a retailer somewhere that wants to compete on price.

It does seem forgotten. Minimum Advertised Price and minimum selling price are not the same.

The dealers obviously like it. If they didn’t they would give us a work around. WMK uses promo codes and National Knives does the add to cart for price thing. Sometimes midway does the add to cart thing as well. The majority of dealers however follow MAP strictly.

Knifeworks gives a great deal on Benchmades with a promo code. Why don’t they do it with Spyderco if they are allowed to? Are they really allowed to? It seems like most dealers are under the impression that the prices are fixed.

I think most dealers like it and it’s here to stay.
I hope moving forward that more dealers will use promo codes or some other method to help us work around it.